Strategic Resilience in the Age of AI

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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I'm your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart.

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And today, we are honored to have a fantastic guest.

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Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier, who will be speaking to us related to resilience,

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especially in the age of AI.

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And by the way, Marie-Hélène also goes by MH.

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So, MH, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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-Thank you, Daniel.

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So excited to be here.

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-This is fantastic, and such a great topic.

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I can relate.

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Well, we'll talk more about this,

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but so many leaders that we are working with all the time

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are trying to figure out how do we show up in this age of uncertainty and complexity?

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But before we get there,

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let me just share with our listeners a brief background, brief bio,

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for who you are and some of your great expertise here.

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So let me just share briefly:

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Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier,

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or MH as she goes by,

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has over twenty years of experience as a leadership psychologist, executive coach,

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and senior leader in the corporate, insurance, and governance sectors.

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Her award-winning book, The Resilience Plan,

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fantastic book, by the way, highly recommend it,

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The Resilience Plan:

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A Strategic Approach to Optimizing Your Work Performance and Mental Health,

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was named a Top Five Book to Read by Inc. Magazine and by Forbes.

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So, MH, thank you for being here again.

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And we want to start off with this kind of general question:

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What led you to dive into resilience as a topic?

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What led you to dive into this

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as you're talking with so many different leaders?

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-Yes, yes.

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It's listening to them, really.

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And what was going on is because I...

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Because of my combined background of psychology and business,

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in any of the roles that I've had,

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I've ended up working a lot with professionals and leaders

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and them asking at times, having conversations with me on,

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you know, how can we optimize what's going on?

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Whatever it is, is this our performance?

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Is this our mental health, and all this.

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And these individuals tend to be like many of your listeners here,

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highly performing, highly resourceful, highly capable.

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And so where they mostly are, and yes,

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sometimes everyone can be in the range of burnout and all that kind of thing.

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At the same time, most of the time, people are highly functioning.

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And so, if we're going to look at optimizing, the...

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the term that makes most sense is resilience,

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because that's where we have this opportunity to proactively look at our brain,

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our overall health, including our mental health,

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and taking actions that will help us optimize our contribution,

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our happiness, and what we bring to what we do.

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So it was listening to their language,

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to where they're at and what resonates with them.

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-As you're listening to so many folks,

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what exactly is resilience or strategic resilience?

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-Yes, yes.

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And I'm so glad you're asking this.

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And it is actually very important

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because it's a question that even the academic literature

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is not all exactly on the same page on.

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There are many definitions, actually.

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But there are some that are used more often than not,

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and that's what I'm going with as well.

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Which so as we think about it, it's for ourselves, but also even for our teams.

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So, whether you're a leader of a team right now or just a member of a—

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not just, but a member of a team,

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it's our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger.

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Okay.

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Now there's a few pieces that are very important for us in this.

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When we're saying going through adversity, often we think of acute moments, right?

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A big moment, a completion of a project, a deadline, things like that.

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And yes, it includes that.

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It also, however, includes chronic demands,

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things that are there and will be there, have been there,

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will continue to be there over a long period of time.

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So that's important to think about this.

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Sometimes we disregard them.

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We say, well, it's there for everybody,

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so there's no point thinking or talking about it.

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No, that's one of the demands.

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And then that piece about

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coming out even stronger has obviously a strong growth mindset to it.

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So we are learning from this.

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And so that's...

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That's the definition that I and many others work with.

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And that's what I'm using in the book and in my TEDx as well,

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and it's just how I go about it.

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And then there are many components, of course.

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-MH, thanks for giving us that background on resiliency.

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And I've shared the same observation you have over the past few decades,

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studying this notion how that definition has evolved a bit

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and people have different perspectives.

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But it seems that underlying foundation of it's that ability to bounce back.

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It's that ability to respond to the stressors and adversity around.

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So as we think about that, at...

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We can look at it at an individual level.

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And I think that's what's so powerful about resilience

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is there's this micro perspective, but also a macro level.

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It can be applied to both a system, organization, as well as the individual.

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But I think from both perspectives,

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it doesn't necessarily eliminate the negative implications and stressors of life.

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You know, you're still going to experience that.

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So, how do you couch that perspective within resilience

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so that people don't sit there thinking, oh, great, I'm resilient,

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nothing's ever going to go wrong for me?

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-Oh, yeah.

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(laughing)

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Well, there's two things that are at risk, if this is what we're thinking.

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You know, there is the “I'm resilient” as if this was a personality trait, which it isn't.

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It is a state.

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It is influenced by some personality traits.

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But even then, it is more of a state that we need

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and I would say absolutely have to invest in.

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And you're right.

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No, it does not change the external environment, the challenges we may be facing,

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the demands, the combination of demands often,

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acute and chronic, personal and professional, right?

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Often they all pile up and come in at the same time.

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So no, it does not change that.

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But it changes how we approach them.

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Sometimes one of the ways to think about it is

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because there is a strong proactive component,

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yes, we could be reactively investing in resilience,

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but like bouncing back, that kind of thing.

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But we can also be proactively investing in it.

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And so, what we're doing when we do this is we increase our baseline, so to speak.

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So the demands still come and they still have the force that they do.

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But meeting these demands, and we all relate to this,

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sometimes we meet the demands and baseline is low, we feel it.

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If we meet the demands with a higher baseline,

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you know, our skills are there, our mindset is better,

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the way we interact and connect naturally with resources,

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with community around us, all the things,

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we do them and it helps us and people around us.

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So many components to it.

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And you're right, the system part of it is extremely important

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because if we, and we sometimes like to think that it's all in us, right?

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Because we love control.

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I mean, who doesn't?

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(laughing)

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Yes.

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And so what comes with it, and often as leaders especially,

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we have been praised for controlling things, making things happen,

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and we like it, and people around us praise us for it.

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And so we get to a point where we think we have a lot of control.

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And we have some, but not full.

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And so, and it's important because if we start thinking that we have full control,

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we could be staying in an environment that we cannot beat, that we cannot win in,

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that may be completely unhealthy, for example.

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So the system part is very important as well.

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-Yeah.

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So let's keep going with this.

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I'd love for you to paint the picture,

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painting the picture of what does somebody with resilience

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look like in that situation?

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And what does somebody without resilience look like?

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And I'll just kind of keep going as you're thinking through this.

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Sometimes I can fall into the trap of thinking, oh,

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somebody who's gone through adversity and they are resilient,

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they're going to go through that adversity and they're going to look amazing.

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They're going to be like positive and optimistic.

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They're going to have a smile on.

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They'll have just as much energy and life is great.

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And clearly, when somebody does not have resilience,

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they're going to get through adversity and they're going to be depressed.

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They're not going to have energy to do anything else.

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And they're just gonna look like, you know, they won't have color in their face.

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They'll just be exhausted.

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All of those are wacky stereotypes

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that may or may not have anything to do with actually what it is.

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So, what's a better, more accurate picture of

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what do we look like when we are resilient?

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What do we look like when we aren't?

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How do we think through that?

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-Yeah.

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Oh, there's many good angles to what you're describing.

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And they're important because...

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Sometimes we ourselves are not even that aware of where are we today,

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where are we right now as we're going through these demands.

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In part, again, because we've been told, oh, you're so strong, you're so resilient.

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We value it.

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We get to a point where we think we're always like this no matter what.

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And so we don't realize we need to be self-aware about it even.

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So we either we see the signs but disregard them,

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or we don't even pay attention to the signs that our resilience may be going down.

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So that's where your question becomes very important,

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not only as we look at other people, but also as we look at ourselves.

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And especially if we're in a leadership role,

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we very much want to look at ourselves because that...

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no matter how we think about ourselves and the impact we have,

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we have an impact.

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Everyone's influencing everyone.

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And the leader is even more watched in terms of inspiring others,

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guiding others, showing modeling, right?

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And so,

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the way we will see it for ourselves and others,

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I mean, the shortest answer is often just not being your usual self.

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That's often the fastest way to say,

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are we dealing with things in a way that's mostly resilient,

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coming from a higher baseline, or lower resilience?

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And I'm going to use these words a bit more,

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higher resilience, lower resilience, as opposed to fully resilient and zero resilient,

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because we tend to sometimes speak like this.

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And I know you know this, but I'm just reminding all of us how it truly is a continuum.

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So even when we think we're really high,

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we're probably not like stuck at the hundred percent.

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And if we think we're really low, we're probably not stuck at zero either.

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We... it is a continuum and we want to keep this in mind.

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Concrete signs, often as leaders, we'll be very good at seeing the challenges,

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taking a bit of a distance to assess what's going on,

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connecting with people, speaking, listening, all these things.

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Sometimes when our resilience is lower, and we've all experienced it,

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we're a bit off-brand.

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So we will be maybe sharper in our responses, not so empathic,

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not so going in and listening, a bit impatient, maybe.

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It may even impact our ability to make decisions.

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The way... I mean, we are still deciding things, but it's not as clear.

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It's not as easy to have good judgment.

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We may even be missing some angles in situations

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that are in a way almost like ethical.

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So they're complex.

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It's not a simple decision.

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It has many angles.

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Sometimes important values are colliding with each other.

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So we'll see it in our ability to do all these things that usually

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yes, we feel the difficulty and the demands of it,

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but we can meet these demands much better.

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So we'll see it for ourselves, hopefully, need to pay attention.

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And, but that may also be how we see it in others.

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-Oh, it's a helpful picture you're painting

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as we're applying this notion and this concept of resilience.

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And especially helping to do away with that switch mentality of

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yes you have it or you don't.

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And it's more of the knob, it's the dial that's continually adjusted,

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an intentional effort is required to really put our best self forward.

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So as we kind of transition from this notion of individual resilience,

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and even more systemic,

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let's integrate this concept of strategy to it.

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And what do you mean by strategic resilience

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and how we can apply that, especially in the context of today?

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-Yes.

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And that is exactly what drove me getting this book together, basically.

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So, what happened, Peter, I'll tell you, is...

246
00:13:43,083 --> 00:13:48,166
so I was working in my mostly executive coaching work and in the keynotes as well,

247
00:13:48,166 --> 00:13:51,750
and at times people, and bringing all the research on resilience,

248
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:55,791
the ways we can apply it as leaders, as professionals, in busy lives, the whole thing.

249
00:13:56,333 --> 00:14:02,416
And then at some point, the comments and the questions were in a way asking,

250
00:14:03,291 --> 00:14:06,916
“Yeah, but I know all of this and I don't have time.

251
00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:09,791
I can't bring all these things in my life.

252
00:14:09,791 --> 00:14:12,791
I want to, but it doesn't translate.”

253
00:14:13,333 --> 00:14:15,625
And then I found myself saying, okay, wait.

254
00:14:16,166 --> 00:14:21,041
When we are in a full-on business context, and like not related to resilience,

255
00:14:21,041 --> 00:14:22,916
just in a business, anything,

256
00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:27,583
and we have... someone has a good idea for a new product or a new service,

257
00:14:28,166 --> 00:14:31,166
do we just say, great, this is a great idea,

258
00:14:31,166 --> 00:14:34,000
new product, new service, let's go and launch it?

259
00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:37,541
Or do we say, it's a great idea.

260
00:14:37,958 --> 00:14:39,916
Let's see who else is offering this.

261
00:14:39,916 --> 00:14:41,500
How much are they charging for it?

262
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:42,625
Who is buying it?

263
00:14:42,625 --> 00:14:44,916
What forces might impact the demand for it?

264
00:14:44,916 --> 00:14:46,708
We're doing all this, right?

265
00:14:46,708 --> 00:14:52,875
We are applying a strategic lens that will force us to look at the broader context

266
00:14:52,875 --> 00:14:56,291
and then design a strategy that will allow us

267
00:14:56,291 --> 00:14:59,583
to more likely be successful with the launch.

268
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Okay.

269
00:15:00,583 --> 00:15:02,166
So then same thing here.

270
00:15:02,666 --> 00:15:07,166
We... if we only have this great idea that, yeah, okay, we know all this research,

271
00:15:07,166 --> 00:15:08,750
it would be great to implement it, but...

272
00:15:09,333 --> 00:15:11,333
can't land it in my life.

273
00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:15,875
What's missing is to do that strategic thinking here.

274
00:15:15,875 --> 00:15:17,958
Okay, so given each of our lives,

275
00:15:17,958 --> 00:15:21,416
so Daniel's life, Peter's life, my life, right now,

276
00:15:21,416 --> 00:15:24,250
what kinds of demands are we facing,

277
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and not underestimating them,

278
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because we tend to do that.

279
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,791
What kinds of sources of supply do we have,

280
00:15:29,791 --> 00:15:33,333
not overestimating them, which leaders do all the time.

281
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,666
Clarity on our values, which in times of uncertainty is what keeps us stable.

282
00:15:40,166 --> 00:15:44,166
Looking at our overall context, in a way, doing a bit of a SWOT analysis,

283
00:15:44,166 --> 00:15:47,416
but for us, looking at our context.

284
00:15:48,166 --> 00:15:53,791
And then we can actually implement the pillars that we're going to pick, the actions,

285
00:15:53,791 --> 00:15:55,625
in a way that actually makes sense.

286
00:15:55,625 --> 00:16:00,083
So that's the difference between just having the great idea,

287
00:16:00,083 --> 00:16:01,541
but no way to land it,

288
00:16:01,541 --> 00:16:05,125
versus great idea paired with a strategy, and now it works.

289
00:16:05,125 --> 00:16:05,833
And it does.

290
00:16:05,833 --> 00:16:09,666
That's the feedback I'm seeing in people, and people are reaching out to me,

291
00:16:09,666 --> 00:16:13,541
telling me they've done it, and now they're at the second iteration of their strategy.

292
00:16:14,625 --> 00:16:16,375
-This is very helpful.

293
00:16:17,375 --> 00:16:21,916
Let's continue then around what leaders can actually do

294
00:16:21,916 --> 00:16:24,875
to be able to then foster this sense of resilience.

295
00:16:24,875 --> 00:16:27,291
And we started off the show with

296
00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:31,541
framing strategic resilience in the age of AI.

297
00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:35,333
And we say AI as kind of this catch-all

298
00:16:35,333 --> 00:16:40,458
because there's so many disruptions happening in so many industries

299
00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,166
from a macro perspective

300
00:16:42,166 --> 00:16:46,625
and then even from an individual and team perspective in the workplace,

301
00:16:46,625 --> 00:16:51,833
at home, so many unexpected things happening perpetually

302
00:16:51,833 --> 00:16:54,750
and things that can't be resolved as easily,

303
00:16:55,666 --> 00:16:59,166
hence this need to be strategically resilient.

304
00:16:59,708 --> 00:17:03,041
What are the things that leaders can do

305
00:17:03,041 --> 00:17:05,875
to strengthen that muscle?

306
00:17:05,875 --> 00:17:08,625
Because you pointed out, it's not so much a trait

307
00:17:08,625 --> 00:17:11,958
that somebody is born with or part of their personality.

308
00:17:11,958 --> 00:17:15,166
It's something that each of us can have.

309
00:17:15,166 --> 00:17:19,750
So what can we do to build and strengthen that sense of resilience

310
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:22,041
as we all go through adversity?

311
00:17:22,541 --> 00:17:24,000
-Yes, yes.

312
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,750
So I'll give you some ideas and keeping in mind that, again, for each of us,

313
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:32,375
the exact ways in which we land them,

314
00:17:32,375 --> 00:17:38,125
the tactics that will make sense for each of us in this moment in time may vary, right?

315
00:17:38,125 --> 00:17:42,791
But at the same time, especially if we think of the demands of AI,

316
00:17:42,791 --> 00:17:45,000
which we would consider chronic ones,

317
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,291
so they're high level, they're always there, they will continue to be there.

318
00:17:48,291 --> 00:17:52,458
At the same time, they're not exactly always the same, right?

319
00:17:52,458 --> 00:17:54,375
They vary in what they are.

320
00:17:54,375 --> 00:17:56,458
So, lots of uncertainty coming with this.

321
00:17:56,791 --> 00:18:03,208
And that's the research I was looking at in part for my TEDx on this topic.

322
00:18:03,208 --> 00:18:05,541
And so, to answer your question,

323
00:18:05,541 --> 00:18:06,875
I'm going to give you an example of

324
00:18:06,875 --> 00:18:09,583
what that strategy might look like for a leader who says,

325
00:18:09,583 --> 00:18:13,625
“But MH, give me something to just start and I will modify it on my own,”

326
00:18:13,625 --> 00:18:17,250
which you could do, you know, as you're looking at your particular context.

327
00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:20,291
But still, I was looking at multidisciplinary research.

328
00:18:20,291 --> 00:18:25,250
I was looking at HR, leadership, AI, of course, technology,

329
00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:29,875
ethics, business management, the 'interdisciplinarity' of...

330
00:18:30,583 --> 00:18:34,750
to answer this actual question, this is actually fairly interesting.

331
00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:38,333
But what's also interesting is that the research on AI specifically,

332
00:18:38,333 --> 00:18:40,041
of course, is more recent.

333
00:18:40,041 --> 00:18:41,958
We don't have three decades of this.

334
00:18:42,583 --> 00:18:47,791
But we do have decades of research in all of these fields that we can bring together.

335
00:18:47,791 --> 00:18:50,916
So, to answer your question, three pillars to consider.

336
00:18:51,791 --> 00:18:55,958
One pillar is increasing our knowledge.

337
00:18:55,958 --> 00:19:01,875
Often, our expertise comes from a specific area, specific field.

338
00:19:02,166 --> 00:19:07,541
And we may be more naturally oriented towards reading more

339
00:19:07,541 --> 00:19:10,000
on this part... in this particular area,

340
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,291
increasing our continuing education investments in this area,

341
00:19:15,291 --> 00:19:17,125
and some of us have to do that.

342
00:19:17,125 --> 00:19:20,708
I have to do that in my work, part of my work as a psychologist, of course.

343
00:19:21,208 --> 00:19:26,166
But then I would say increase your knowledge specific to AI and emerging technologies.

344
00:19:26,166 --> 00:19:27,375
Force yourself.

345
00:19:27,375 --> 00:19:32,000
Even if you're not feeling like it, ensure that you do that because if you don't,

346
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,333
that means you're actually missing a chance to decrease that uncertainty.

347
00:19:36,791 --> 00:19:40,000
In the absence of this information, you're going to either not think about it,

348
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,708
which becomes worse in the background,

349
00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:42,416
(laughing)

350
00:19:42,416 --> 00:19:47,041
or create potentially more catastrophic scenarios for yourself.

351
00:19:47,291 --> 00:19:48,541
So we need to increase knowledge.

352
00:19:48,541 --> 00:19:51,916
Now, concrete actions, next time you go to a conference,

353
00:19:51,916 --> 00:19:55,416
make sure you go to that talk, not just the technical ones in your field.

354
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:59,041
Next time you read any publication

355
00:19:59,041 --> 00:20:01,208
make sure you read at least one piece.

356
00:20:01,208 --> 00:20:03,833
Maybe you challenge yourself one piece a week on this topic.

357
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:06,125
But we need to increase our knowledge.

358
00:20:06,375 --> 00:20:07,500
That's one of the pillars.

359
00:20:08,875 --> 00:20:11,333
Another pillar is to manage your mindset.

360
00:20:11,875 --> 00:20:14,375
Again, not something that is new.

361
00:20:14,375 --> 00:20:16,333
In managing anxiety about anything,

362
00:20:16,333 --> 00:20:21,541
we want to catch how we're thinking about it, catching the catastrophic thinking,

363
00:20:21,541 --> 00:20:27,208
catching the tendency to predict with high probability something terrible.

364
00:20:27,583 --> 00:20:28,375
Is it possible?

365
00:20:28,375 --> 00:20:29,083
Yes.

366
00:20:29,083 --> 00:20:30,291
Is it probable?

367
00:20:30,291 --> 00:20:31,541
Not necessarily.

368
00:20:31,541 --> 00:20:33,458
Okay, we need to untangle this.

369
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,208
Managing the mindset.

370
00:20:35,208 --> 00:20:41,250
And specific to AI, there's actually some research emerging now that was looking at...

371
00:20:43,333 --> 00:20:46,125
what they were using specifically there, but it connects with exactly this,

372
00:20:46,125 --> 00:20:47,625
was self-affirmations.

373
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:54,000
So not the full-on changing your thinking and mindset,

374
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,625
you know, with a lot of depth necessarily,

375
00:20:56,625 --> 00:21:00,416
but it was to train your mind to, okay, I see something,

376
00:21:00,416 --> 00:21:03,375
I have no idea where this is going, I have no idea what it means for me.

377
00:21:03,625 --> 00:21:08,166
And I will figure it out, or and I will find a solution.

378
00:21:08,541 --> 00:21:13,041
And so there, you're just helping your brain go in that direction.

379
00:21:13,041 --> 00:21:14,000
That could be an action.

380
00:21:14,541 --> 00:21:18,625
And the third one, I would say, a third useful category to consider, again,

381
00:21:18,625 --> 00:21:21,958
and bringing all this research together and experience as well,

382
00:21:21,958 --> 00:21:27,916
and I'm sure in your work you'll relate to this as well, it's building community.

383
00:21:28,708 --> 00:21:31,750
So yes, we're working with machines much more,

384
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:35,250
and we do need to stay connected with each other as humans

385
00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:39,541
because that serves as protection for our resilience, for us,

386
00:21:39,541 --> 00:21:41,250
and for people around us as well.

387
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:45,625
So today, I may be the one feeling pretty good about it, but you two aren't feeling it.

388
00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:47,541
Or it's the reverse.

389
00:21:47,541 --> 00:21:50,583
I'm feeling it, and you two are feeling super solid.

390
00:21:50,583 --> 00:21:53,125
But because we're talking, it's going to help all of us.

391
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,333
So that may be that pillar of community we want to make sure we invest in

392
00:21:58,375 --> 00:22:02,083
for all kinds of reasons, but, you know, we're hearing leaders

393
00:22:02,083 --> 00:22:04,625
dealing with so much pressures right now.

394
00:22:04,625 --> 00:22:07,500
They've been for, we've all been, I've been in leadership roles,

395
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:08,958
and you've been as well.

396
00:22:08,958 --> 00:22:11,083
So pressures are high.

397
00:22:11,083 --> 00:22:15,000
And they're even higher, whether we're cutting resources even more,

398
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,666
dealing with ways to integrate AI even more in what we do,

399
00:22:19,666 --> 00:22:23,958
all kinds of other stressors, climate, political, economical, all kinds.

400
00:22:24,458 --> 00:22:26,458
So, community even more important.

401
00:22:26,916 --> 00:22:27,375
-Helpful.

402
00:22:27,375 --> 00:22:28,541
I love those three pillars.

403
00:22:28,541 --> 00:22:30,833
So, just to recap for our listeners,

404
00:22:30,833 --> 00:22:35,583
the first was increase our knowledge, and I'll add in strategic areas.

405
00:22:35,583 --> 00:22:39,041
So we're diversifying what we're exposing ourselves to.

406
00:22:39,291 --> 00:22:42,000
The second one, manage your mindset,

407
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,333
catching to make sure we're not

408
00:22:43,333 --> 00:22:47,333
falling into some of those cognitive distortions that are not helpful.

409
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:52,375
And then the third is building community, that support we need for each other.

410
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:56,041
Let's double-click a little bit more in that third one of building community

411
00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,916
about how we can truly support each other in this.

412
00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:05,958
And why is that pillar so critical during time of significant disruption,

413
00:23:05,958 --> 00:23:08,666
like what AI is bringing to the workforce now?

414
00:23:08,833 --> 00:23:09,875
-Yes, yes.

415
00:23:09,875 --> 00:23:11,875
Well, so many ways.

416
00:23:11,875 --> 00:23:14,625
One that I find is...

417
00:23:14,625 --> 00:23:18,750
I think a useful one that sometimes we don't think about as much perhaps right now

418
00:23:19,208 --> 00:23:26,000
is, you know, the reality is that a lot of our identity is connected with work.

419
00:23:27,166 --> 00:23:30,291
Some of it is outside of work, of course, but some of it is work.

420
00:23:30,666 --> 00:23:35,083
Now, if AI is coming in and modifying this,

421
00:23:35,083 --> 00:23:39,083
it may modify our identities in some ways, right?

422
00:23:39,083 --> 00:23:43,958
Because AI may come in and do sort of just bring me closer

423
00:23:43,958 --> 00:23:47,166
to my what we call ideal work self,

424
00:23:47,166 --> 00:23:49,541
in which case it makes me very happy, it's all good.

425
00:23:49,875 --> 00:23:52,916
It may take me away from my ideal work self,

426
00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:57,833
in which case we need to look for other ways to bring me back to my ideal work self

427
00:23:57,833 --> 00:24:01,666
so that I can stay engaged, happy and contributing.

428
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,375
And so when we're increasing community,

429
00:24:05,375 --> 00:24:10,666
part of what we can do for each other is having these conversations.

430
00:24:10,958 --> 00:24:13,208
Having the conversations at times about

431
00:24:13,208 --> 00:24:16,000
how is that shifting how you feel about yourself,

432
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,291
how you feel about your, in this case, work identity.

433
00:24:19,291 --> 00:24:21,625
And if you are in the leadership role,

434
00:24:21,625 --> 00:24:24,500
and I would argue, if you're speaking with your leaders,

435
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,000
you're not the one in a leadership role,

436
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,708
but your leader is there to support you,

437
00:24:28,708 --> 00:24:30,041
open that conversation.

438
00:24:30,041 --> 00:24:31,875
If you're the leader, for sure, bring it up.

439
00:24:31,875 --> 00:24:35,250
But if your leader doesn't, you bring it up and say, you know what,

440
00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:38,583
I'd love for us to have a chat about what that means

441
00:24:38,583 --> 00:24:41,250
for my professional identity, these changes.

442
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:42,208
What do you see?

443
00:24:42,208 --> 00:24:46,958
Because sometimes a leader will have visibility on more changes, broader picture.

444
00:24:46,958 --> 00:24:48,833
That's part of why the structure is there.

445
00:24:49,333 --> 00:24:54,958
Let's invite that conversation both to help create that next identity,

446
00:24:54,958 --> 00:24:57,750
but even earlier than this in the process, to

447
00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:04,041
acknowledge the uncertainty it brings on the identity to tolerate that state.

448
00:25:04,041 --> 00:25:06,416
And even the leader can share for themselves,

449
00:25:06,416 --> 00:25:09,208
you know, about themselves and say, that's true for me too.

450
00:25:09,208 --> 00:25:10,666
I don't know.

451
00:25:10,666 --> 00:25:15,875
And we have to stay in this sort of liminal in-between space

452
00:25:15,875 --> 00:25:20,083
where a lot of it is tolerating the uncertainty,

453
00:25:20,083 --> 00:25:24,250
which at a broader level we may need to do every day for a long time.

454
00:25:24,666 --> 00:25:27,958
-Let's take that and apply it to a specific situation.

455
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:31,416
So a leader working with their team.

456
00:25:32,166 --> 00:25:38,916
What can leaders do to be able to build a sense of resilience within their team itself?

457
00:25:39,208 --> 00:25:42,166
And I'll share a specific example.

458
00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:45,833
So I was just coaching a leader in operations.

459
00:25:45,833 --> 00:25:48,958
She runs a large part of the business.

460
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:53,750
And as she's getting more and more demands all the time,

461
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:55,666
with tariffs and you name it,

462
00:25:55,666 --> 00:25:59,166
it's just a challenge and the level of uncertainty is high.

463
00:25:59,666 --> 00:26:07,083
Her boss, the CEO, does not want to hear that she and her team is overwhelmed.

464
00:26:07,541 --> 00:26:09,458
The workload is challenging.

465
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:12,000
It's like, no, you're the leader.

466
00:26:12,166 --> 00:26:13,541
You figure this out.

467
00:26:14,208 --> 00:26:18,125
And so what advice, what guidance would you have for that leader

468
00:26:18,125 --> 00:26:22,041
as she is trying to not only build resilience for herself,

469
00:26:22,583 --> 00:26:26,583
but build resilience for her team as well.

470
00:26:26,583 --> 00:26:27,500
What would you say?

471
00:26:27,791 --> 00:26:28,250
-Yes.

472
00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:31,375
Well, number one, she needs to talk to you, Daniel, which is good.

473
00:26:31,375 --> 00:26:34,666
And I'm not saying that just I mean, I know I'm being a bit funny here,

474
00:26:34,666 --> 00:26:36,541
but truly, actually,

475
00:26:36,541 --> 00:26:42,041
when we are in these kinds of situations, that can be so isolating and so demanding.

476
00:26:42,333 --> 00:26:44,291
Because in a better context,

477
00:26:44,291 --> 00:26:49,625
and that's one example where in an earlier, more junior leadership role,

478
00:26:49,625 --> 00:26:51,500
when you're saying a manager role,

479
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,291
it's often a bit easier in that sense because you can go to your director and say,

480
00:26:55,291 --> 00:26:58,041
I need help, and the director will not say, I don't want to hear it.

481
00:26:58,333 --> 00:27:01,458
It's part of their job to support you and make you successful.

482
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:06,958
But then it becomes more challenging as you get higher in the hierarchy chain

483
00:27:06,958 --> 00:27:09,750
because now it's the CEO who's saying, I don't want to hear it.

484
00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:12,666
And well, that's where it stops.

485
00:27:12,666 --> 00:27:14,375
So... you're stuck.

486
00:27:14,375 --> 00:27:16,000
And if you stay stuck,

487
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,500
it actually is a bit tricky for your own overall ability to think about this.

488
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,791
It actually is unfortunate that the CEO is saying this.

489
00:27:23,791 --> 00:27:27,125
It would be great if the CEO could help a little bit have a conversation,

490
00:27:27,125 --> 00:27:30,208
not do her job, but have a conversation.

491
00:27:30,833 --> 00:27:35,291
You know, that person is leading the organization and may actually be very helpful.

492
00:27:36,041 --> 00:27:37,833
But in the situation when they're not,

493
00:27:37,833 --> 00:27:41,208
then this person here, which could be any of us at any point in time,

494
00:27:41,208 --> 00:27:43,333
we need to outreach to additional resources,

495
00:27:43,333 --> 00:27:46,500
not just stay stuck with it and just give to our team

496
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,458
because that means no one's giving you anything.

497
00:27:48,458 --> 00:27:48,958
(laughing)

498
00:27:49,375 --> 00:27:51,375
So someone needs to give you something.

499
00:27:51,375 --> 00:27:53,000
In this case, she's got a Daniel.

500
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:53,833
Yay for her.

501
00:27:54,416 --> 00:27:55,125
And that helps.

502
00:27:55,125 --> 00:27:56,791
So that's actually very important.

503
00:27:57,458 --> 00:27:59,291
And sometimes you need more than one resource.

504
00:27:59,291 --> 00:28:02,083
Sometimes you're going to need a coach.

505
00:28:02,083 --> 00:28:04,041
You're going to need your work psychologist.

506
00:28:04,041 --> 00:28:06,500
You're going to need a peer support group.

507
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,750
You're going to need a leadership support group, virtual or in person.

508
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:13,000
You're going to need more connections with your friends,

509
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,375
connections with your spiritual leader.

510
00:28:15,375 --> 00:28:19,541
You know, we want to actually go and really get that support.

511
00:28:19,958 --> 00:28:21,750
That being said, then you turn to your team

512
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:24,375
and you want to support your team in this context,

513
00:28:24,375 --> 00:28:25,625
which of course is complex,

514
00:28:25,625 --> 00:28:29,791
so I'm not going to provide a magical answer here in a couple of minutes.

515
00:28:29,791 --> 00:28:30,416
But some...

516
00:28:31,791 --> 00:28:36,666
Some directions to consider in addition to that first one, which I think is very important.

517
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:40,750
It may be, especially in the context of AI,

518
00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:45,958
what we're seeing is that the team members will often have the best ideas

519
00:28:45,958 --> 00:28:49,000
on how AI and emerging technologies can help

520
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,375
more than her as a leader,

521
00:28:51,375 --> 00:28:53,833
because they're closer to what's happening,

522
00:28:53,833 --> 00:28:57,791
either themselves or closer to teams under them that will have ideas.

523
00:28:58,125 --> 00:29:01,750
So being open to having these conversations about

524
00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:05,458
how may potentially AI and emerging technologies help.

525
00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:09,000
That's a longer term contribution to the response,

526
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,208
but that's a question worth asking that sometimes we skip because we're so busy.

527
00:29:13,541 --> 00:29:16,333
And sometimes people actually have ideas,

528
00:29:16,333 --> 00:29:19,083
but because leadership is not asking, they don't bring them up.

529
00:29:19,375 --> 00:29:20,666
And so we will never know.

530
00:29:21,125 --> 00:29:23,625
And so that may be an important piece.

531
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,958
Another one is for that leader,

532
00:29:26,958 --> 00:29:31,166
assuming that she has enough in her to bring these conversations,

533
00:29:31,541 --> 00:29:35,166
but is to have conversations with the teams about the workload,

534
00:29:35,166 --> 00:29:37,083
which sometimes we actually try to avoid

535
00:29:37,083 --> 00:29:40,708
because we're hearing nothing can be done from the top.

536
00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:43,708
And we know everything still needs to get done.

537
00:29:43,708 --> 00:29:45,083
So we're thinking, well, I can't...

538
00:29:45,458 --> 00:29:47,750
If I open this can, it will be terrible.

539
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:51,666
No, you got to have it in you and bring up the conversation.

540
00:29:51,666 --> 00:29:54,375
And you can be very transparent in saying, look,

541
00:29:54,375 --> 00:29:58,125
we're not going to be able to change eighty percent of this situation.

542
00:29:58,125 --> 00:29:59,833
A lot of it needs to stay the same.

543
00:30:00,375 --> 00:30:04,750
What we need is to look for the smaller pieces that will contribute

544
00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:08,791
to helping us create a better comfort or better space.

545
00:30:09,125 --> 00:30:11,083
And in opening these conversations,

546
00:30:11,083 --> 00:30:14,458
sometimes the team will find ideas and then we go for that.

547
00:30:14,833 --> 00:30:19,791
If you want to lead, sometimes it's helping the team find the most demanding,

548
00:30:19,791 --> 00:30:23,875
the friction points, the most demanding moments.

549
00:30:23,875 --> 00:30:26,458
Sometimes I've worked with a leader where

550
00:30:26,458 --> 00:30:31,125
that conversation led to identifying that there was a process

551
00:30:31,125 --> 00:30:34,750
in which, at times, not often, a small proportion of the time,

552
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:38,000
but some steps were actually very challenging, very demanding.

553
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:42,375
And they were very taxing for the individual and the team around

554
00:30:42,375 --> 00:30:45,583
because everyone became aware that there was this pro this part of the process.

555
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,833
So but we were not paying attention to it as much because it was a rare-ish occurrence.

556
00:30:52,375 --> 00:30:54,375
However, it was a high stress one.

557
00:30:54,375 --> 00:31:01,375
Once they realized that, they blew this up so that we could really support it much better,

558
00:31:01,375 --> 00:31:04,958
and it actually changed how many people were feeling on the team

559
00:31:04,958 --> 00:31:07,583
in terms of workload, even if it was a rare occurrence.

560
00:31:08,333 --> 00:31:09,458
So that's an example.

561
00:31:09,958 --> 00:31:15,000
And a third one is to ask the team, or if you know yourself,

562
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,500
when is the next most demanding time for us?

563
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,458
So let's say it is, say, in three months from now,

564
00:31:21,458 --> 00:31:23,791
and sometimes it's a recurring thing.

565
00:31:23,791 --> 00:31:27,541
Every single year, this moment is a tough one.

566
00:31:27,541 --> 00:31:30,666
But we just put our heads down and go through.

567
00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:33,916
What can we do this time to get there

568
00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:36,875
with an overall higher baseline for all of us as a team?

569
00:31:37,375 --> 00:31:40,333
What can we change between now and then,

570
00:31:40,333 --> 00:31:44,625
do differently, push to later, ask for help,

571
00:31:44,625 --> 00:31:47,208
whatever, do a portion of instead of full,

572
00:31:47,208 --> 00:31:51,916
so that we get there with more a higher baseline as individuals,

573
00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:53,125
but also as a team.

574
00:31:53,791 --> 00:31:56,583
And so that may be an example of, some examples of

575
00:31:56,583 --> 00:31:59,833
ways we can change the course of how this is going to go down.

576
00:32:00,375 --> 00:32:02,208
-Really good examples there, MH.

577
00:32:02,208 --> 00:32:05,791
And what I also appreciated was you illustrated

578
00:32:05,791 --> 00:32:10,875
the three core principles that you had previously discussed in this response.

579
00:32:11,208 --> 00:32:13,041
What, first thing you suggest?

580
00:32:13,041 --> 00:32:15,291
Making sure you're getting the support you need.

581
00:32:15,291 --> 00:32:17,125
That was one of the foundational pillars,

582
00:32:17,125 --> 00:32:21,500
encouraging that leader to reach out to additional folks so they're not feeling isolated.

583
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:23,875
Then it's looking at the mindset they're bringing.

584
00:32:23,875 --> 00:32:25,416
Not playing the victim.

585
00:32:25,416 --> 00:32:27,708
Recognizing what they can and can't control.

586
00:32:27,708 --> 00:32:31,666
Not getting overly defensive and personalizing the feedback from the CEO,

587
00:32:31,666 --> 00:32:34,791
but being able to move forward and having that growth mindset.

588
00:32:35,125 --> 00:32:40,833
And then third, increasing their knowledge by soliciting information from their team.

589
00:32:40,833 --> 00:32:42,750
How can we leverage AI better?

590
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:44,791
What is this, you know, as we think long term?

591
00:32:44,791 --> 00:32:48,166
How can we anticipate these challenges in the future?

592
00:32:48,166 --> 00:32:52,041
So it's just powerful as we think about the application of these

593
00:32:52,041 --> 00:32:54,416
if we can pull back to those core principles

594
00:32:54,416 --> 00:32:56,791
that I think you did such a great job illustrating.

595
00:32:57,333 --> 00:32:58,041
-Yes, thanks.

596
00:32:58,041 --> 00:33:00,791
Well, they're coming from research, so... you know, it's...

597
00:33:01,208 --> 00:33:01,958
I mean, it's true.

598
00:33:01,958 --> 00:33:03,166
I mean that's the beauty of research.

599
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:04,375
That's the purpose.

600
00:33:04,375 --> 00:33:07,583
You know, sometimes people say, oh, why are you so stuck on research?

601
00:33:07,583 --> 00:33:11,208
Well, because we actually know it has positive impacts.

602
00:33:11,208 --> 00:33:14,458
And as we know, research is a conversation.

603
00:33:14,458 --> 00:33:17,500
And the more we've got studies going in that same direction,

604
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:20,583
and then people like all of us here applying it,

605
00:33:20,583 --> 00:33:23,833
we see the power of these approaches.

606
00:33:24,333 --> 00:33:27,750
-So as we kind of wrap this up, MH,

607
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:34,083
what's the one thing that a leader can do to increase their ability to be resilient?

608
00:33:34,083 --> 00:33:35,041
-Yes, and...

609
00:33:35,708 --> 00:33:39,000
I, in addition to all the things we talk about, I think they're all very good.

610
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,458
But I'm going to bring something up that some listeners will say,

611
00:33:42,458 --> 00:33:45,416
oh, MH, I've tried this and it's not for me.

612
00:33:46,458 --> 00:33:47,625
Meditation.

613
00:33:48,041 --> 00:33:49,333
Meditation.

614
00:33:49,333 --> 00:33:52,791
And the reason why I bring this particular thing in this conversation,

615
00:33:52,791 --> 00:33:54,833
where we've talked about so many other things here:

616
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:56,583
There's a couple of reasons.

617
00:33:56,583 --> 00:34:00,458
Number one, many leaders have tried it because they've heard the research

618
00:34:00,458 --> 00:34:02,458
and they would love for their brain to calm down,

619
00:34:02,750 --> 00:34:06,875
and it did not work, in their opinion, because their brain did not calm down,

620
00:34:06,875 --> 00:34:10,416
so they stopped doing it and just say it's not for me, I hated it, or whatever.

621
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:16,291
Yet, no, the research is not saying if it didn't work, that means it's not for you.

622
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:18,333
That's not the case.

623
00:34:18,833 --> 00:34:23,125
And this is a time where especially leaders,

624
00:34:23,125 --> 00:34:29,000
everyone and especially leaders are so taxed with the amount of decisions,

625
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,875
the speed and the importance of decisions.

626
00:34:31,875 --> 00:34:36,208
And it is accelerated because in part because of AI.

627
00:34:36,208 --> 00:34:40,458
So it has many benefits, but it also creates this different pace.

628
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,458
And it's a pace that can become tricky also because

629
00:34:45,125 --> 00:34:49,291
sometimes it's helpful and it almost...

630
00:34:49,291 --> 00:34:53,416
we're almost delegating sometimes too much to it a little bit.

631
00:34:53,833 --> 00:35:01,291
We're not taking the moment to apply our own ethical lens to what's happening.

632
00:35:01,666 --> 00:35:05,333
And it could be because of so many reasons.

633
00:35:05,833 --> 00:35:10,083
So what we want, what will allow us to actually take this moment,

634
00:35:10,083 --> 00:35:12,708
and I'm not talking about a half day of reflection.

635
00:35:12,708 --> 00:35:15,625
I'm talking about sometimes five seconds,

636
00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:19,291
just the five seconds that gives you this space to say...

637
00:35:20,583 --> 00:35:23,000
You see, I just took a breath, but that's it.

638
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,833
You're breathing for a moment, and you're saying, wait,

639
00:35:25,833 --> 00:35:29,916
there might be other people in this decision I need to think about.

640
00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:33,541
There may be other possible consequences of this decision.

641
00:35:33,541 --> 00:35:34,833
I need to pause on this.

642
00:35:34,833 --> 00:35:35,791
This is a great text.

643
00:35:35,791 --> 00:35:36,750
This is a great plan.

644
00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:37,458
Whatever.

645
00:35:37,458 --> 00:35:39,375
I need to sit with it for a moment longer.

646
00:35:39,375 --> 00:35:41,791
I need to have someone else on my team look at it.

647
00:35:42,333 --> 00:35:46,750
All of this, and what will allow you, all of us, me too, to do that,

648
00:35:46,750 --> 00:35:52,375
is a brain that's a bit calmer, not a brain that has 200 files open in it.

649
00:35:53,708 --> 00:35:54,958
And that's what meditation does.

650
00:35:54,958 --> 00:35:56,333
It's like in your computer.

651
00:35:56,333 --> 00:36:00,541
When you shut down those windows, it functions better after.

652
00:36:01,166 --> 00:36:01,791
Same thing.

653
00:36:01,791 --> 00:36:03,333
So that is the one thing.

654
00:36:03,333 --> 00:36:04,541
Long answer, sorry.

655
00:36:04,541 --> 00:36:07,375
But yes, go back to that meditation.

656
00:36:07,583 --> 00:36:08,750
-Very helpful.

657
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:13,083
MH, thank you so much for being part of the Leadership Growth Podcast today.

658
00:36:13,083 --> 00:36:13,500
-Thank you.

659
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:15,666
It was a pleasure to be here with both of you and everyone.

660
00:36:15,666 --> 00:36:16,583
-Absolutely.

661
00:36:16,583 --> 00:36:18,916
So thank you, listeners, for joining us.

662
00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:23,166
And I hope you've been able to take away some practical tips and tools

663
00:36:23,166 --> 00:36:27,541
to help increase your ability to be resilient, to go through adversity.

664
00:36:27,541 --> 00:36:32,458
and come out stronger on the other side for you and your team.

665
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:33,791
Take care.

666
00:36:33,791 --> 00:36:37,416
Please like and subscribe and listen to future episodes

667
00:36:37,416 --> 00:36:39,083
on the Leadership Growth Podcast.

668
00:36:39,083 --> 00:36:39,875
Take care, everyone.

669
00:36:40,375 --> 00:36:43,708
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague.

670
00:36:43,708 --> 00:36:47,750
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671
00:36:48,125 --> 00:36:51,166
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672
00:36:51,625 --> 00:36:53,833
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673
00:36:53,833 --> 00:36:57,416
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674
00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:00,416
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