Habit Building for Leaders

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Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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I’m your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother, Peter Stewart.

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And we today have a fantastic guest.

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Ron Dufresne, welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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-Thank you very much, Daniel and Peter.

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So great to see both of you.

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-And I should say, Dr. Ron Dufresne,

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or Professor Ron Dufresne, correct?

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-Or just Ron.

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I’ll respond to all three.

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-I love it.

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So today, the topic:

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Habits.

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What habits do leaders need to have?

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And frankly, what’s the process of being able to build

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effective helpful habits as leaders?

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This is what we want to dive into.

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And Ron here will be able to guide us.

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He has such rich experience.

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And in fact, let me read his bio and then we’ll dive into the topic at hand.

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So, Dr. Ron Dufresne,

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Professor of Management at St. Joseph’s University in Philadelphia,

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where he has earned awards for his teaching and research.

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A former U.S. officer, U.S. Army officer, I should say,

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he focuses on leadership and ethics,

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with a particular interest in the role of character in leadership.

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This is fantastic.

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So, with all of this, Ron, give us a sense…

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help us begin the conversation as we look at building great habits with leaders,

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particularly around decision making,

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because sometimes we can think, wait a minute.

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Habits.

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Do those habits help us make decisions?

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Or are they kind of substitutes?

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Walk through the interaction between these habits and decision-making a little bit for us.

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-Yeah, that’s a great way for us to start.

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So as I approach thinking about habits,

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and especially I really focus on the role of habits in our leadership.

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Because there’s a lot of different ways to looking at habits, you know,

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habitual eating, habitual exercise, sleep habits, et cetera.

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All those certainly serve our leadership, and we can talk about that later.

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But really the core of the neuroscience,

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the core of the psychology that goes into our leadership habits,

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really speak about two broad tracks.

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One is the System 1 track, which is, you know, more, it is habitual,

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it is intuitive, it is reactive.

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Then that System 2 track, and these are Danny Kahneman’s phrasings,

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would be that more deliberative, discerning, intentional decision making.

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So when we think about the role of habits in decision making,

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a lot of our inputs into our decisions

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are based on habits.

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So, where do we go for our information?

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You know, whom do I ask for their perspective?

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How do I tend to process information?

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Those are all habits that certainly we can’t deny the fact

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that we have our System 2 deliberative approach to deciding.

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But we, I think, more often than not,

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ignore the role of habits in kind of setting the foundation for those decisions.

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-Yeah it’s a great reminder you’re sharing of the function that habits serve.

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You know, they’re adaptive.

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They’re beneficial for us as humans.

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It helps make many decisions and behaviors and things we do each day

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so that we’re not having to decide every little thing.

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It makes it easier on our brain.

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But it’s that same ease that sure can make it difficult then to change and to modify,

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because our brain tends to not want that change, or it fights against us.

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What kind of foundational elements can you share with us

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about that process to help kind of set the stage for

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well, habits are good, but how do we then begin to adjust them?

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-It’s again a great framing.

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And Wendy Wood has done great research

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that finds that in doing diary studies,

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somewhere between roughly 45, 50% of our daily actions are habitual,

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which, you know, and more often than not,

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we can identify them when we recount a day,

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you know, to do like a diary study, for example.

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So, again, I think of it in terms of that foundation versus the intentionality.

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And you’re so right, Peter, when we think about trying to get through a day.

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Imagine if we use that System 2 deliberative process

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over deciding what to have for breakfast.

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I mean, none of us would ever leave our homes because we’d still be sitting there,

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you know, looking up recipes for various omelets and whatever.

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But instead, we just eat the thing that we habitually would eat or some strict,

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you know, stripped down set of options.

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And that’s really, I think, how I want to think about the role of habits in our leadership,

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is to take away a lot of the need for that deliberative,

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very cognitively taxing work that we need to do as leaders.

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If we can offload some of these things to habits

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then we can really focus our attention on the things that really matter.

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So imagine having built a habit of pausing before making a decision.

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Wow, that’s going to make us more effective

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when we get around to making that decision.

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Or a habit of trying to understand what someone’s really saying before responding.

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Wow, what a great way that we can really focus

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our deliberative attention on what really matters in that case.

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-So let’s keep going there because…

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Let’s paint this picture of an average day of a leader.

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And there are going to be many decisions that an average, you know,

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a leader does in an average day.

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Imagining, okay, when they wake up, they may check email.

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And they may have all sorts of cues that pop up in the email from their boss.

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Ooh, I gotta… must immediately respond.

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Habit.

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OK, boom, right there.

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Oh, somebody on my team who is new, isn’t as experienced.

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Okay, I need to help provide.

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Or, oh, somebody in engineering.

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Oh, I hate that person.

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Oh, that person really annoys me.

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And now I have this develop…

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and I’m not gonna respond.

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Anyway, all sorts of these reactions that can become habitual

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and then carry out throughout the day,

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especially folks who are so addicted to email and Teams messages,

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they must respond every time.

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Or when they go to a meeting and they’re in charge,

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they get into a certain mindset of I need to have the right answers.

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Or, you know, these deep-seated assumptions.

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So let’s just put a timeout there.

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How does a leader know when to pay attention

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and to question and perhaps change

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some of these habits?

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Because some of this, it’s we’re not even aware of it.

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We just go through, and in fact, it’s helpful for us.

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It may or may not be helpful for other people.

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How do we pause?

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What’s the process when we know we got to pay attention

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and perhaps shift some of our habits?

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-Yeah, that’s great, Daniel.

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And I’m mindful of something that Peter raised just a minute ago

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about the adaptive nature of our habits.

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And I think that the way that we can think through

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when might be time for us to reflect on what our habits really are

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and if they’re serving us,

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is to engage in essentially some sort of meta, meta approach.

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So maybe we’re harnessing that system to kind of deliberativeness

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to take account of the degree to which my habits are adaptive or maladaptive.

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So we think of, you know, like addiction is a maladaptive habit.

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You know, it tends to be for many people.

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So it still has all the features of habituation.

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It just happens not to serve maybe who you want to be or what you want to do.

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And same thing with some of our leadership habits.

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So I think that for us to maybe even start our journey with asking,

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what are those habits that I do embody?

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And to what degree are they adaptive?

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So great.

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I have a habit of walking my dog.

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I’d characterize that as an adaptive habit.

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It gets me out at least a few times a day.

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It’s great.

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But what about the times that I habitually kind of find myself

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checking my email on my phone as I walk my dog?

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I would argue that’s maladaptive.

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That’s, you know, it’s not good for me.

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It’s not good for my dog.

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I’m ignoring him.

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You know, probably going to trip at some point.

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And I’m depriving myself of that benefit of the habitual walking

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of just kind of unplugging and paying attention to the birds

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and just maybe some passing thought coming through my mind.

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So, walking,

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adaptive habit.

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Checking my phone, maladaptive habit in that point.

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So I think that maybe we can start…

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One of the first steps, I think, is to really do a wholesale accounting

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over what patterns might I have

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and to what degree are they serving who I want to be

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as a leader?

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-You’re reminding us of just one of the foundational elements of growth,

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and that’s the ability to reflect,

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to pause,

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to actually be intentional about what we’re doing,

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because we don’t live in a society that really promotes that,

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or should I say, allows that to happen by accident.

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Like there have to be those steps of, all right,

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I am going to think about how I’m doing, and is this bringing the results I want?

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I want to just highlight, a kind of a reframe that you’re providing,

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that I think listeners may not even be connecting.

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And it’s that recognition that we’re talking about habits.

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At times, we’re just talking about behaviors.

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And whether we’re using that term habit, whether we’re using that term behavior,

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I think sometimes there can be that mental barrier to trying to change them.

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But it really it sounds like habits are just behaviors that we do on a regular basis,

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more at that subconscious level.

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So as we start to dive into that more,

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how can leaders leverage habits for decision making?

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-Yeah, and there’s a great, you’re touching on, Peter, where

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how this is really a bundle of different concepts, you know, behaviors, actions.

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You know, I started this intentional kind of approach, really, you know,

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doing deep research or deep reading rather into Aristotle.

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And Aristotle talks about habits as practices of character.

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So essentially, we are what we habitually do.

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And when we look at our leadership,

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those habitual adaptive approaches, those sets of behaviors

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that, you know, are in that system wall,

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we don’t have to, you know, really intentionally use our cognitive approach for it

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or practices for it.

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You know, to me, I think the habit of reflecting

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is foundational as we were discussing,

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as is that habit of perspective taking,

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that habit of trying to understand where the other person’s coming from

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in their perspective.

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Because most of us have this habitual, you know,

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comes from a good place, presumption, maybe even,

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that, you know, even if I respect both of you as being very intelligent,

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hardworking, good people, as I know for a fact that you are,

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well, I’m the same.

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I’m also fairly intelligent, well meaning, all those great things.

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So, all right, we’re all three sharing the same attributes,

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therefore, we must all think the same.

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Well, what a logical flaw I just made at the last step.

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So, for me to slow down and then to have, hopefully,

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build that habit of perspective taking such that

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I need to pause to understand and to deeply listen

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to what you’re saying and why you’re saying it.

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So, in what ways what you’re saying perfectly genius

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or perfectly reasonable from your perspective?

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And I think, and this is a habit journey that I’ve been on for probably 25 years,

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and that is that I’ve felt better today than I’ve ever been before.

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I still have a ways to go.

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But I’m so much better at rather than habitually dismissing your disagreement

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as being evidence of your agency,

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actually, listening to your disagreement as evidence that you’re genius.

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Wow, I knew you to be a really smart guy.

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Like, you see the world differently than I do?

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Well, that’s going to help me make such better decisions

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when I have to continue to get with that cognitive System 2 approach

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when that time comes.

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-So the perspective taking, I love this.

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Let’s dive a little deeper into this

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because it’s kind of like under the umbrella of

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what are types of leadership habits that we want to have?

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And what are those leadership habits that may not serve us well?

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And so as you’re thinking through under the banner of leadership habits that we want,

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perspective taking is right up there.

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What can be done to be able to help us

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get more into a habit of perspective taking?

238
00:14:08,791 –> 00:14:13,291
And I’ll share an example here as we’re kind of talking through this.

239
00:14:13,291 –> 00:14:18,541
So I’m working with a CEO, a large publicly traded manufacturing organization.

240
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She is so smart.

241
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She is quick.

242
00:14:22,375 –> 00:14:28,333
For the life of her, she so struggles being present in conversations

243
00:14:28,333 –> 00:14:33,500
because she is so task-focused and she gets a lot of things done.

244
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But when you’re on a Teams call with her, you know she’s doing 15 other things

245
00:14:40,291 –> 00:14:42,583
and it takes her a moment to get back.

246
00:14:42,958 –> 00:14:46,916
But yet she will also talk about how much she values people

247
00:14:46,916 –> 00:14:49,833
and the relation… and deep down she does.

248
00:14:50,500 –> 00:14:52,208
There is a disconnect

249
00:14:53,041 –> 00:14:58,458
between that task focus that is so habitual, and her preference,

250
00:14:58,833 –> 00:15:04,541
and yet her intent of also paying attention and taking other people’s perspectives.

251
00:15:05,583 –> 00:15:08,583
How does a leader begin to go about

252
00:15:09,125 –> 00:15:14,375
adapting and adjusting some of their deeply ingrained habits?

253
00:15:15,000 –> 00:15:17,333
Even just to take that perspective taking?

254
00:15:17,666 –> 00:15:19,041
How do you respond to that, Ron?

255
00:15:19,625 –> 00:15:23,791
-Yeah, so that and here again, there’s so much great research done

256
00:15:23,791 –> 00:15:25,958
either from psychology or from neuroscience

257
00:15:25,958 –> 00:15:29,250
that really has in the past couple decades

258
00:15:30,083 –> 00:15:35,125
uncovered a lot of kind of the keys to the kingdom here.

259
00:15:36,291 –> 00:15:41,166
Very, you know, famously popularized by authors like James Clear or Charles Duhigg,

260
00:15:41,166 –> 00:15:42,666
there’s that habit loop,

261
00:15:43,083 –> 00:15:48,708
which is classically some combination of cue or context, right?

262
00:15:48,708 –> 00:15:53,500
So that situation that might trigger some sort of behavioral response,

263
00:15:53,916 –> 00:15:56,333
the response being probably the habit,

264
00:15:56,750 –> 00:15:58,125
followed by some reward.

265
00:15:58,125 –> 00:16:02,583
So, some sort of cue context, followed by the response, followed by the reward.

266
00:16:03,000 –> 00:16:06,708
So, back to the question of habitual perspective taking.

267
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So thankfully, because we also know that habits will only be formed with habituation,

268
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with a lot of repetition, in a relatively stable context to start,

269
00:16:19,958 –> 00:16:24,291
thankfully, those of us who work with others have ample opportunities

270
00:16:24,291 –> 00:16:26,708
throughout the day to take others’ perspective.

271
00:16:27,041 –> 00:16:30,208
So, great cue when you say something.

272
00:16:30,750 –> 00:16:31,666
As you just did.

273
00:16:32,083 –> 00:16:35,875
So that’s my cue that if I, if, again,

274
00:16:35,875 –> 00:16:38,791
I’ve done some reflective practice to recognize like,

275
00:16:39,166 –> 00:16:42,083
“God, it seems like we’re not on the same page.”

276
00:16:42,291 –> 00:16:42,500
Great.

277
00:16:42,583 –> 00:16:45,458
So that might indicate some degree of misunderstanding.

278
00:16:46,791 –> 00:16:49,708
Or these people aren’t just, aren’t buying into my ideas.

279
00:16:50,291 –> 00:16:52,208
Or, you know, people,

280
00:16:52,208 –> 00:16:56,125
I spot people rolling their eyes when I’m saying something,

281
00:16:56,125 –> 00:16:58,791
whatever that insight to make me realize

282
00:16:58,791 –> 00:17:01,125
there’s something maybe that I need to be doing better

283
00:17:02,750 –> 00:17:07,833
to really pay attention to that cue-response-reward cycle.

284
00:17:08,625 –> 00:17:12,916
So it could be that I recognize that typically when someone responds to me,

285
00:17:12,916 –> 00:17:15,791
or better yet, when someone disagrees with me,

286
00:17:16,333 –> 00:17:19,166
that cue might trigger defensiveness.

287
00:17:19,958 –> 00:17:22,041
It might trigger, like, oh, you don’t get it.

288
00:17:22,041 –> 00:17:24,166
And maybe you have to, you know, speak louder.

289
00:17:24,416 –> 00:17:29,250
Or, you know, use, you know, more syllables in my words

290
00:17:29,250 –> 00:17:31,291
to prove to you how smart I am,

291
00:17:31,291 –> 00:17:33,541
because that’ll convince you how right I am.

292
00:17:35,375 –> 00:17:39,500
And then, of course, that’s been reinforced over time with some sort of reward,

293
00:17:39,500 –> 00:17:42,916
maybe the feeling of power, the feeling of being in charge, whatever it might be.

294
00:17:43,750 –> 00:17:47,458
So to come back to the question of how might we approach this

295
00:17:47,458 –> 00:17:51,541
in a more intentional way, well, the cue is going to remain.

296
00:17:51,833 –> 00:17:53,000
So, you’re still going to say something.

297
00:17:53,000 –> 00:17:54,875
You’re still going to maybe disagree with me.

298
00:17:55,208 –> 00:18:00,041
Now, it’s a question of choosing what response I actually do want to have.

299
00:18:01,291 –> 00:18:06,875
And this is the key insights of the research on habit formation

300
00:18:06,875 –> 00:18:09,166
is it has to be simple.

301
00:18:09,166 –> 00:18:10,416
It has to be measurable.

302
00:18:11,000 –> 00:18:12,958
So it can’t (unclear)

303
00:18:13,875 –> 00:18:17,625
when responding with (unclear) they will listen better.

304
00:18:19,000 –> 00:18:19,791
That’s terrible.

305
00:18:20,375 –> 00:18:22,208
How do I know if I’m listening to them or not?

306
00:18:23,166 –> 00:18:27,708
So, when in fact you say something that maybe I disagree with,

307
00:18:28,208 –> 00:18:32,750
cue, now I’m going to respond with just pausing,

308
00:18:34,458 –> 00:18:39,666
and listening with intent, and maybe repeating what I heard you say.

309
00:18:40,166 –> 00:18:42,166
Well, that’s more incremental.

310
00:18:42,416 –> 00:18:44,166
It’s more doable, more manageable.

311
00:18:44,166 –> 00:18:45,708
I can measure if I did it or not.

312
00:18:46,333 –> 00:18:46,625
-Yeah.

313
00:18:46,875 –> 00:18:50,958
-And that’s really, that’s the crux of any sort of habit formation,

314
00:18:50,958 –> 00:18:54,208
habit change, is recognizing the cues are there,

315
00:18:54,791 –> 00:18:58,958
now, what response do I want to have

316
00:18:59,458 –> 00:19:02,041
when that cue arises,

317
00:19:02,041 –> 00:19:04,041
and then hopefully lock that in with some rewards,

318
00:19:04,041 –> 00:19:06,250
maybe some shorthand proximate reward

319
00:19:06,250 –> 00:19:08,458
like a check mark on my to-do list.

320
00:19:08,875 –> 00:19:14,541
Hopefully, longer term, more intrinsic rewards like, wow, we argue less.

321
00:19:15,000 –> 00:19:15,916
That would be amazing.

322
00:19:16,208 –> 00:19:17,583
I have less stress at work.

323
00:19:17,833 –> 00:19:18,541
That would be amazing.

324
00:19:18,708 –> 00:19:20,250
These are longer-term rewards.

325
00:19:20,500 –> 00:19:22,833
-Yeah, you’re really outlining, Ron, and reminding…

326
00:19:22,833 –> 00:19:28,666
and it’s interesting as I reflect back, even in my training as a psychologist,

327
00:19:28,666 –> 00:19:31,833
first core elements of behavioral modification.

328
00:19:32,208 –> 00:19:34,041
You know, it was the ABCs.

329
00:19:34,458 –> 00:19:37,333
Antecedent. Behavior. Consequence.

330
00:19:37,541 –> 00:19:42,166
You know, and the terminology, cue, context, behavior, reward.

331
00:19:42,375 –> 00:19:48,916
Like it’s these patterns that we’ve really known about human behavior for decades now.

332
00:19:49,500 –> 00:19:54,083
But I think it is a testament to how persistent our habits are,

333
00:19:54,083 –> 00:19:54,666
(laughing)

334
00:19:54,666 –> 00:19:57,708
that we still are needing to remind ourselves of that.

335
00:19:57,708 –> 00:20:00,208
So you outlined it so beautifully

336
00:20:00,416 –> 00:20:05,458
of taking that pause to reflect, because you can dissect any behavior,

337
00:20:05,458 –> 00:20:10,000
any habit down into those three steps of alright, what are those cues?

338
00:20:10,291 –> 00:20:11,708
What are the things that happened before?

339
00:20:11,708 –> 00:20:13,458
So then you can be aware of those triggers.

340
00:20:14,083 –> 00:20:16,125
Now, what is the behavior I currently do?

341
00:20:16,666 –> 00:20:18,583
And what is the result of that?

342
00:20:19,000 –> 00:20:22,625
And now, how do I pivot and adjust and shift that?

343
00:20:22,625 –> 00:20:26,375
So now that we’ve kind of outlined that basic core framework,

344
00:20:26,833 –> 00:20:30,333
what would you say in your experience working with all these many leaders

345
00:20:30,666 –> 00:20:36,791
are the kind of the core, those top habits that you believe leaders should develop?

346
00:20:37,125 –> 00:20:39,625
-So we’ve talked a lot about their perspective taking.

347
00:20:39,875 –> 00:20:41,208
I think that’s critical.

348
00:20:42,666 –> 00:20:44,791
A habit of reflection.

349
00:20:44,958 –> 00:20:45,916
Again, we talked about that.

350
00:20:46,041 –> 00:20:47,333
That’s also critical.

351
00:20:47,666 –> 00:20:50,541
And critically, you know, as like less critical things,

352
00:20:52,208 –> 00:20:54,833
the wrong way to listen to this list is to say,

353
00:20:54,833 –> 00:20:57,791
“All right, I’ll do all five or six this week.”

354
00:20:59,000 –> 00:21:03,791
The better approach is to be more intentional and to do phasing.

355
00:21:04,166 –> 00:21:07,958
And, you know, maybe I’m going to start, as a foundational habit,

356
00:21:07,958 –> 00:21:11,333
with that, you know, that self-reflection.

357
00:21:11,833 –> 00:21:13,833
I’m going to pause,

358
00:21:14,208 –> 00:21:17,125
you know, four times a day, with predictable cues,

359
00:21:17,125 –> 00:21:19,208
maybe when I wake up in the morning,

360
00:21:20,166 –> 00:21:24,166
maybe as I’m putting my shoes on to leave the house to go to work.

361
00:21:24,916 –> 00:21:26,791
Maybe when I’m eating my lunch,

362
00:21:27,041 –> 00:21:29,583
let’s hope not at my desk, which is what I typically do.

363
00:21:30,916 –> 00:21:32,416
Maybe when I’m driving home from work.

364
00:21:33,208 –> 00:21:37,375
I’m going to just spend 60 seconds checking in.

365
00:21:38,125 –> 00:21:39,041
What’s going well?

366
00:21:39,333 –> 00:21:40,375
What’s gone poorly?

367
00:21:40,541 –> 00:21:41,500
What can I do better?

368
00:21:42,333 –> 00:21:48,000
So it has to be repetitive with predictable cues.

369
00:21:49,125 –> 00:21:50,208
And if I do that,

370
00:21:50,750 –> 00:21:53,333
you know, maybe three, four weeks in a row,

371
00:21:53,541 –> 00:21:55,916
now I’m ready for the habit of perspective taking.

372
00:21:58,166 –> 00:22:00,458
Maybe a habit of active listening,

373
00:22:01,125 –> 00:22:06,125
you know, so building that practice of not just perspective taking,

374
00:22:06,125 –> 00:22:09,500
but I’m going to turn to you and give you my full attention.

375
00:22:09,833 –> 00:22:11,541
I’m going to put my phone down,

376
00:22:12,041 –> 00:22:14,750
you know, turn away from whatever my work is in front of me

377
00:22:14,750 –> 00:22:18,250
and look at you and engage in a couple of practices

378
00:22:18,500 –> 00:22:19,958
like my physical presence,

379
00:22:20,666 –> 00:22:22,166
repeating back what I’ve heard,

380
00:22:23,041 –> 00:22:27,458
and that will be my incremental practice for the next three to four weeks

381
00:22:27,458 –> 00:22:30,041
until that becomes more habitual.

382
00:22:31,875 –> 00:22:36,875
I would certainly add to the list a short list of habits.

383
00:22:38,916 –> 00:22:43,708
You know, for me, I think of it in the domain of courage

384
00:22:44,583 –> 00:22:48,833
in leadership, I think that what that means to each of us is going to be different.

385
00:22:49,708 –> 00:22:53,125
What it really touches on is building that habit

386
00:22:53,375 –> 00:22:57,708
of leaning into the slightly uncomfortable, harder thing.

387
00:22:58,250 –> 00:23:02,416
So we know that courage is choosing the harder right instead of the easier wrong.

388
00:23:03,458 –> 00:23:05,708
And if I as a leader

389
00:23:05,708 –> 00:23:08,250
can pause to recognize that there’s a scary…

390
00:23:08,541 –> 00:23:10,291
maybe I’m holding off on sending this email

391
00:23:10,291 –> 00:23:12,833
because I’m afraid of what response it’s going to trigger.

392
00:23:13,916 –> 00:23:20,916
Well, I think all of us have three or four or five, ten occasions throughout the day

393
00:23:20,916 –> 00:23:25,333
of choosing maybe that harder right versus the easier wrong.

394
00:23:25,791 –> 00:23:29,416
And maybe it’s not going to be a career-defining amount of courage.

395
00:23:30,125 –> 00:23:34,708
It’s going to be an opportunity to do something that maybe is harder for me.

396
00:23:35,416 –> 00:23:37,375
If we can spend a month working on that,

397
00:23:38,166 –> 00:23:42,583
I think we’re going to start to desensitize ourselves to what that perceived risk

398
00:23:43,458 –> 00:23:44,958
we’ve been building up in our mind,

399
00:23:45,291 –> 00:23:46,875
maybe it’s not that big of a deal.

400
00:23:47,166 –> 00:23:50,125
And only through the habituation do we start to learn that.

401
00:23:50,750 –> 00:23:51,791
-It’s well said.

402
00:23:52,416 –> 00:23:56,083
And so we can go to the next step here is

403
00:23:56,541 –> 00:23:59,625
as we reflect on our current habits

404
00:24:00,166 –> 00:24:03,541
and think about which ones we might want to adapt or adjust,

405
00:24:03,916 –> 00:24:06,083
how do we make them stick?

406
00:24:06,916 –> 00:24:10,291
How do we keep it becoming persistent,

407
00:24:10,708 –> 00:24:14,041
especially during times of stress and pressure?

408
00:24:14,625 –> 00:24:20,208
Where in those moments, we as humans, we can have that huge tendency,

409
00:24:21,375 –> 00:24:25,416
that everything then just that we’ve worked for goes out the window.

410
00:24:25,750 –> 00:24:30,250
And our base sort of internal drive comes right back out.

411
00:24:30,541 –> 00:24:37,375
And it’s as if we didn’t have success previously of being positive and being reflective.

412
00:24:38,250 –> 00:24:40,875
How do we keep things to stick,

413
00:24:40,875 –> 00:24:43,625
especially in times of stress and pressure?

414
00:24:43,625 –> 00:24:47,291
How do we have a mindset to go about dealing with that?

415
00:24:48,291 –> 00:24:52,541
-Yeah, and Daniel, you’re narrating what happens in all of our brains all the time.

416
00:24:52,541 –> 00:24:55,916
So, you know, we have this like this intentionality.

417
00:24:55,916 –> 00:24:57,458
That’s the prefrontal cortex.

418
00:24:57,458 –> 00:24:58,708
It is like, you know,

419
00:24:58,708 –> 00:25:03,250
the future planful thinking cognitive load part of our brain.

420
00:25:03,500 –> 00:25:04,958
And then when stress kicks in,

421
00:25:05,375 –> 00:25:08,333
that disconnects and the amygdala takes over

422
00:25:08,333 –> 00:25:10,666
and we’ve forgotten what our intentions were.

423
00:25:11,083 –> 00:25:11,958
Because we can.

424
00:25:12,250 –> 00:25:14,708
And that’s the beauty of the habituation

425
00:25:15,083 –> 00:25:17,041
is when we’re under stress,

426
00:25:17,041 –> 00:25:19,333
we’re more likely to fall back on those habits.

427
00:25:20,041 –> 00:25:25,166
So, you know, the best time to engage in the habit formation

428
00:25:25,375 –> 00:25:29,416
is when we aren’t, you know, right up against something very stressful.

429
00:25:29,708 –> 00:25:32,083
You know, it’s like the best time to prepare for a crisis at work

430
00:25:32,083 –> 00:25:33,708
is when things are going well.

431
00:25:34,875 –> 00:25:37,875
Same kind of approach here with our habit development.

432
00:25:38,666 –> 00:25:42,083
A couple ways that we can do our best to lock it in.

433
00:25:44,333 –> 00:25:46,333
That idea of following the dopamine.

434
00:25:46,666 –> 00:25:49,541
So, what do we feel is rewarding?

435
00:25:49,750 –> 00:25:54,166
And there’s, you know, Charles Duhigg in his book, The Power of Habits,

436
00:25:54,166 –> 00:25:57,333
you know, talks about this kind of counterintuitive approach

437
00:25:57,333 –> 00:25:59,583
to developing the exercise habit

438
00:26:00,000 –> 00:26:03,500
of people rewarding their exercise with bits of chocolate.

439
00:26:04,583 –> 00:26:08,041
Because people might you know, it’s counterintuitive.

440
00:26:08,041 –> 00:26:09,333
Of course, you want to be healthier

441
00:26:09,333 –> 00:26:12,000
and you’re rewarding the exercise with something that,

442
00:26:12,000 –> 00:26:14,833
you know, is seemingly unhealthy.

443
00:26:15,416 –> 00:26:19,375
But the idea there is, you know, once the habit is formed,

444
00:26:19,375 –> 00:26:22,416
we no longer need that proximate dopamine.

445
00:26:23,208 –> 00:26:29,125
In fact, we have that more intrinsic, inherent dopamine still there, still dopaminergic.

446
00:26:29,750 –> 00:26:33,750
But it’s not so much from the chocolate, it’s from that feeling of being… feeling well.

447
00:26:34,375 –> 00:26:36,458
So I think for all of us,

448
00:26:36,458 –> 00:26:40,708
you know, the first thing is to think about what are those kind of short-term,

449
00:26:40,708 –> 00:26:45,000
quick-hit dopamines before we can lock in the longer-term effects.

450
00:26:46,166 –> 00:26:52,916
Some of us, like I, I love the feeling of crossing things off of my to-do list.

451
00:26:54,000 –> 00:26:56,208
Like, you know, check marking somehow doesn’t trigger

452
00:26:56,208 –> 00:26:58,416
the same dopamine as crossing.

453
00:26:58,416 –> 00:27:01,416
Oh, oh, or of just crossing it off.

454
00:27:02,166 –> 00:27:03,250
Feels so good.

455
00:27:03,958 –> 00:27:08,958
So for me, that’s a short, quick hit dopamine reward.

456
00:27:09,333 –> 00:27:12,958
The second really important, perhaps even more important approach

457
00:27:12,958 –> 00:27:15,000
is to enlist some social pressure.

458
00:27:15,583 –> 00:27:17,625
We know that we are social animals.

459
00:27:18,041 –> 00:27:21,000
And one of the most rewarding things we can do

460
00:27:21,000 –> 00:27:26,291
is to be respected by others, to be seen in a positive light by others.

461
00:27:26,958 –> 00:27:30,166
And the most perhaps cutting thing is the opposite,

462
00:27:30,500 –> 00:27:35,791
to feel at the risk of being ostracized by others.

463
00:27:36,125 –> 00:27:40,583
So I am a huge fan of accountability partners,

464
00:27:41,208 –> 00:27:42,541
of telling you,

465
00:27:43,250 –> 00:27:47,250
“Here, Daniel, will you please be my accountability partner, if you’re on board with it.

466
00:27:48,208 –> 00:27:50,916
I know we talk several times throughout the day.

467
00:27:51,166 –> 00:27:55,666
If you ever get the feeling that I’m not fully listening to what you’re saying,

468
00:27:56,791 –> 00:28:00,625
please, you know, just call a time out on the conversation

469
00:28:00,875 –> 00:28:02,708
and let me know that I’m off track.

470
00:28:02,708 –> 00:28:05,833
Because I’m telling you, Daniel, that my habit right now I’m working on

471
00:28:05,833 –> 00:28:09,500
is really full attention giving and listening.

472
00:28:10,166 –> 00:28:13,916
So if I can enlist your help in forming that habit,

473
00:28:14,916 –> 00:28:18,791
I mean, right now, I’m having a little feeling of that anxiety.

474
00:28:18,958 –> 00:28:20,333
I don’t want to let you down, Daniel.

475
00:28:20,958 –> 00:28:26,458
And he didn’t say yes yet, but there’s that social aspect

476
00:28:27,375 –> 00:28:29,291
that we are so wired for.

477
00:28:30,125 –> 00:28:31,458
So I would say those two things.

478
00:28:31,791 –> 00:28:36,291
You know, find whatever short-term, you know, dopamine hit that works for you.

479
00:28:36,541 –> 00:28:37,750
And then make it social.

480
00:28:38,416 –> 00:28:42,250
Find someone who will hold you accountable in a real way,

481
00:28:42,250 –> 00:28:45,666
not just some performative, like, “Oh, yeah, I’m there for you, buddy.”

482
00:28:46,000 –> 00:28:49,458
No, someone who’s really going to do what good friends do for each other,

483
00:28:49,750 –> 00:28:51,041
and that’s to hold me accountable.

484
00:28:52,166 –> 00:28:52,583
-Yeah.

485
00:28:53,166 –> 00:28:55,250
As you’re sharing those core thoughts, Ron,

486
00:28:55,708 –> 00:28:59,666
I’m reflecting on coaching conversations I’ve had with many,

487
00:28:59,666 –> 00:29:03,500
many leaders who have a similar challenge,

488
00:29:04,250 –> 00:29:11,875
a desire to want to focus more on the strategic tasks and needs.

489
00:29:12,458 –> 00:29:17,500
But yet they’re barred down in the tactical pull of the day-to-day,

490
00:29:17,500 –> 00:29:21,375
of the dumpster fires and the crises du jour and that sort of thing.

491
00:29:21,750 –> 00:29:24,375
As you’re outlining this process,

492
00:29:24,375 –> 00:29:28,041
what suggestions would you give to many of our listeners

493
00:29:28,041 –> 00:29:30,833
who are sitting here saying, that’s my challenge?

494
00:29:30,958 –> 00:29:32,375
I want to try to figure it out.

495
00:29:32,708 –> 00:29:35,458
How would you help a leader develop a habit

496
00:29:35,958 –> 00:29:37,625
to think strategically?

497
00:29:38,166 –> 00:29:40,750
-I think for me,

498
00:29:40,750 –> 00:29:43,500
the coaching that I’ve given many, many leaders

499
00:29:43,500 –> 00:29:49,333
is to find some tool that will help hold them accountable to just doing it.

500
00:29:50,375 –> 00:29:52,416
And for me, it’s my calendar.

501
00:29:52,875 –> 00:29:57,875
So I’m sure both of you, when we all work with leaders

502
00:29:59,041 –> 00:30:02,625
they’ll deny having half an hour of time in their calendar.

503
00:30:03,208 –> 00:30:04,083
“There’s just no time.”

504
00:30:04,375 –> 00:30:07,666
“I would love to do this, Peter, but I just have no time.”

505
00:30:08,875 –> 00:30:12,291
Until you actually sit down with their calendar with them

506
00:30:12,291 –> 00:30:14,833
and recognize that there’s time all over the place.

507
00:30:15,166 –> 00:30:18,250
It might not be half, it might not be an hour.

508
00:30:18,916 –> 00:30:20,333
Might not even be half an hour.

509
00:30:20,833 –> 00:30:26,416
But is there a 15-minute window in all of our very busy calendars,

510
00:30:27,000 –> 00:30:33,416
when we can carve out that time and to really focus on the strategic aspect.

511
00:30:33,583 –> 00:30:34,208
Yes.

512
00:30:35,083 –> 00:30:36,041
I’m convinced of it.

513
00:30:36,208 –> 00:30:41,625
I mean, I bet no matter what our jobs might be, we have 15 minutes.

514
00:30:42,291 –> 00:30:43,375
So I would say schedule it.

515
00:30:43,958 –> 00:30:47,041
And importantly, again, back to the idea of making this social,

516
00:30:48,333 –> 00:30:51,208
make sure that that is inviolable.

517
00:30:51,833 –> 00:30:57,458
Because we do know that we can form habits best in stable contexts.

518
00:30:57,916 –> 00:31:00,041
So it’s not going to work

519
00:31:00,541 –> 00:31:04,875
if I put it in my calendar, there’s a hold on my calendar at 5:30

520
00:31:04,875 –> 00:31:08,375
before hopefully I can start to, you know, wind, wind the day down.

521
00:31:08,916 –> 00:31:13,666
From 5:30 to 5:45 is my daily strategic thinking time.

522
00:31:14,916 –> 00:31:16,541
And the next thing you know, you ask, you know,

523
00:31:16,541 –> 00:31:20,541
you stop by my office and you want to chat about the football game.

524
00:31:21,583 –> 00:31:25,125
Well, if I don’t hold firm to my calendar,

525
00:31:25,291 –> 00:31:26,958
and if I haven’t enlisted your help,

526
00:31:27,416 –> 00:31:29,958
then there’s no way it’s going to become habitual.

527
00:31:30,416 –> 00:31:34,083
So I think the key is to find

528
00:31:34,458 –> 00:31:38,000
maybe make the time, find the time, block the time,

529
00:31:38,000 –> 00:31:40,166
and then do not violate that time.

530
00:31:40,875 –> 00:31:45,250
Because it might be hard, might even think like, all right, 15 minutes,

531
00:31:45,250 –> 00:31:47,416
that’s not enough time to really think big strategic thoughts.

532
00:31:47,416 –> 00:31:48,333
And it might not be.

533
00:31:49,000 –> 00:31:52,583
But over time, I bet we can become better and better and better

534
00:31:52,583 –> 00:31:55,500
at switching into strategic brain

535
00:31:55,750 –> 00:31:59,250
and maybe using a full 14 minutes of strategic thought

536
00:31:59,541 –> 00:32:01,541
that we weren’t doing before.

537
00:32:02,041 –> 00:32:04,375
I bet that’s going to make us so much more effective.

538
00:32:06,333 –> 00:32:11,250
-Ron, I cannot underscore the power of your comments today.

539
00:32:12,041 –> 00:32:15,583
The power of being able to be reflective, to pause,

540
00:32:15,583 –> 00:32:17,708
to be able to then look to see,

541
00:32:17,916 –> 00:32:20,041
are my habits my…

542
00:32:21,291 –> 00:32:24,041
These go-to responses that I have,

543
00:32:24,375 –> 00:32:28,000
are they serving me to help me be my best self,

544
00:32:28,625 –> 00:32:33,708
not just for myself, but as a leader, which is beyond myself?

545
00:32:34,375 –> 00:32:35,833
And it includes others.

546
00:32:36,166 –> 00:32:40,791
And it’s not just a practice that you do once, but it’s continual.

547
00:32:41,375 –> 00:32:43,708
Earlier you said a comment for yourself

548
00:32:43,708 –> 00:32:46,666
that’s something you’ve been working on for 20, 25 years.

549
00:32:47,333 –> 00:32:51,833
These are all things for all of us to continue to work through.

550
00:32:51,833 –> 00:32:57,666
So, as we kind of wrap up here, here’s my final question for you.

551
00:32:58,458 –> 00:33:02,791
What is one or two leadership habits

552
00:33:03,625 –> 00:33:08,541
that leaders want to aspire to cultivate and have

553
00:33:08,541 –> 00:33:11,541
that will help them be most successful?

554
00:33:11,833 –> 00:33:12,583
What would you say?

555
00:33:12,916 –> 00:33:13,416
-I think…

556
00:33:13,583 –> 00:33:19,416
I think if I were to boil it down to the most pressing two takeaways,

557
00:33:19,416 –> 00:33:22,125
what are two very essential leadership habits,

558
00:33:22,541 –> 00:33:25,666
one is to build a habit of intention setting.

559
00:33:26,500 –> 00:33:31,541
So, whom do I want to become as a leader, as a professional?

560
00:33:31,791 –> 00:33:34,333
For me, as a husband, as a father,

561
00:33:34,333 –> 00:33:37,500
that’s all wrapped up into the same answer anyway.

562
00:33:39,125 –> 00:33:40,250
Whom do I want to become?

563
00:33:40,583 –> 00:33:44,166
And to maybe, you know, it’s going to evolve over a lifetime.

564
00:33:44,416 –> 00:33:49,458
So to build a habit of checking in on what my intentionalities might be.

565
00:33:49,875 –> 00:33:51,708
I think that would be step one.

566
00:33:52,166 –> 00:33:57,625
Then step two is to what degree have I built alignment

567
00:33:58,000 –> 00:34:01,916
around making sure my behaviors are pointing in that direction.

568
00:34:02,291 –> 00:34:04,000
Am I living a life that I want to live?

569
00:34:04,375 –> 00:34:05,833
Or am I living someone else’s life?

570
00:34:06,125 –> 00:34:09,083
Am I fulfilling someone else’s obligations?

571
00:34:10,083 –> 00:34:13,416
So if I can build that habit of intention setting

572
00:34:13,833 –> 00:34:17,541
and that habit of reflecting maybe again a few times a day.

573
00:34:17,875 –> 00:34:18,458
Am I…

574
00:34:18,750 –> 00:34:22,375
Am I living in accordance with who I want to be,

575
00:34:22,375 –> 00:34:23,833
the leader that I want to be?

576
00:34:23,833 –> 00:34:27,708
Am I treating people in a way that I intend to treat them,

577
00:34:28,125 –> 00:34:28,791
or not,

578
00:34:29,125 –> 00:34:34,291
and to build that habit of actually paying attention to not just what I intend,

579
00:34:34,291 –> 00:34:35,708
but to actually what I do,

580
00:34:36,375 –> 00:34:40,291
and to avoid that bias blind spot that all of us have.

581
00:34:41,458 –> 00:34:43,458
I think I’d start there, Daniel.

582
00:34:43,833 –> 00:34:44,541
-I love it.

583
00:34:44,916 –> 00:34:45,375
I love it.

584
00:34:45,375 –> 00:34:47,666
Dr. Ron Dufresne, thank you.

585
00:34:48,000 –> 00:34:50,291
Outstanding comments, great insights.

586
00:34:50,750 –> 00:34:55,708
Powerful, especially because it needs to apply to all of us all the time

587
00:34:56,250 –> 00:35:00,083
as we challenge ourselves to become better and stronger leaders.

588
00:35:00,333 –> 00:35:02,541
Thank you, listeners, for joining us today.

589
00:35:02,916 –> 00:35:06,625
We certainly hope you’ve been able to take away great tips, tools, and insights

590
00:35:06,625 –> 00:35:08,916
to help you along your leadership journey.

591
00:35:09,166 –> 00:35:10,583
Please like and subscribe.

592
00:35:10,916 –> 00:35:14,208
And we look forward to having you join us at a future episode.

593
00:35:14,625 –> 00:35:15,666
So long, everybody.

594
00:35:16,333 –> 00:35:19,541
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595
00:35:19,708 –> 00:35:23,625
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596
00:35:24,166 –> 00:35:27,125
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597
00:35:27,791 –> 00:35:28,958
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598
00:35:28,958 –> 00:35:30,958
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599
00:35:30,958 –> 00:35:33,458
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600
00:35:33,833 –> 00:35:36,291
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