Creating Mentally and Emotionally Strong Leaders

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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I’m your host, Daniel Stewart, along with my brother Peter Stewart,

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and we are quite honored today to have a fantastic guest with us, Lisa Skeffington.

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Welcome to the Leadership Growth Podcast.

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-Hello, and thank you so much for having me as a guest on your wonderful show.

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I’m really looking forward to bringing some insight and some value to your

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great listeners.

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-I love it.

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Lisa, thank you.

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And so for our listeners, let me share a brief background of Lisa’s,

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especially to introduce then the topic

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of how do we create mentally and emotionally strong leaders?

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A valuable topic here that we’re going to dive into.

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So, Lisa’s background here, Lisa Skeffington,

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is a multi-award winning psychotherapist, executive coach,

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and self-esteem expert with over 25 years in private practice.

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She supports high achieving, outwardly successful leaders.

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And I love how that’s phrased.

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You can look high achieving and successful.

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However,

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people who are struggling though, privately struggling, with high functioning anxiety,

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self-doubt, and relationship strain

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to then help regain a sense of confidence and clarity.

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And it’s interesting.

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I wonder who of us is not in that category in some way

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And so as we think of, you know, you can be this successful on the outside,

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but inside, how are you managing your own anxiety,

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and managing relationships and managing your own level of confidence?

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I mean, who hasn’t struggled with that as well?

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So, Lisa,

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welcome again.

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And as we’re starting off here, here’s an initial question for you to dive in.

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What does an emotionally and mentally strong leader even look like?

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How would we begin to describe and think about that?

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Let’s use that as a starting off point here.

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-Okay, great.

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And that’s a really, really good opening question, isn’t it?

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So let’s look at what the core characteristics are.

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Okay, so first off, I want to say that I work predominantly with women,

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but I do also work with men.

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Often men come to me through their partners, who are often women.

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(laughing)

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So with that in mind, I’m going to revert to refer to a strong leader being a woman.

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Okay, just for the absence of any confusion.

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Okay, so these core characteristics of a mentally and emotionally strong leader,

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what does this look like?

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So…

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someone who is self-aware without that constant self-doubt.

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So we’re talking about someone who knows her strength

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and her triggers,

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but she doesn’t let her past wounds dictate those present decisions every day.

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She’s calm, under pressure.

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She has a regulated nervous system, and this means that she can think clearly

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in those high stakes moments, rather than reacting from fear.

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So she’s boundaried, not defensive.

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It’s a big difference, isn’t there?

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She says no without guilt

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and she holds her ground without aggression.

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Now this means that she’s authentic, because she’s not performing.

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She leads with genuine values rather than proving or seeking validation.

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And this allows her to be emotionally honest, doesn’t it?

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Because she’s acknowledging vulnerability as strength.

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She doesn’t need the “I’ve got it all together” facade going on.

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So let’s look at how she demonstrates this.

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So she walks into the boardroom, and her presence commands respect.

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Not through dominance, but just through a grounded confidence.

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It’s like an energy, isn’t it, that she brings with her.

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And when she’s challenged or dismissed, she doesn’t shrink or overcompensate.

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She responds with clarity and conviction.

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So her team feels safe.

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They feel safe to speak up around her because she models emotional intelligence.

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She makes decisions from strategy and clarity,

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not from people pleasing or fear of judgment.

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And after setback, she recovers quickly.

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Because she has a resilience that is built in.

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It’s not forced.

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She communicates differently at work

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to how she communicates at home.

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And this is key, and I will expand on this a little bit later, perhaps.

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-Yeah.

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-Now, she can excel at high stakes negotiations.

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But she has also learned that the same approach at home killed intimacy.

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It’s that clever dance of masculine-feminine energy, isn’t it?

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Now this all together means that she is fully present in her relationships.

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She isn’t bringing work armor

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home with her.

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And she isn’t treating her partner like a project.

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So inwardly

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her inner critic is present, but it’s not in control.

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She’s learned to parent that voice rather than be parented by it.

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Her self-worth is disentangled from her output,

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and this means that her achievements are enjoyed,

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but they don’t define her.

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She can rest without feeling weakness or like she’s a failure.

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Her intimate relationships, well, they thrive,

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because she knows when to shift

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from winning the conversation to deepening connection.

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She’s deeply connected, purposeful and at peace, let’s say.

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She’s not just happy or successful.

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It’s much deeper than that.

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It’s this depth

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that creates what I call emotional wealth.

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-Wow, so much valuable thoughts there and points as you think about reflecting,

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as you’re going through those

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various attributes as we reflect on our own lives.

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And then you go, okay, where, where have we felt elements of that?

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Where have we felt like we wished, oh, I wish I could do a little bit better at that one?

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And I think as listeners who are hearing that,

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they found themselves diving into each of those.

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And so many to explore.

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But let’s pick up on this notion of emotional wealth that you stopped with,

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of I’m not sure that’s a term that a lot of our listeners have heard,

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but I think it just lends itself to just expanding so much more

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because it gives that ability to bring in so many of those attributes

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that you were just discussing.

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So tell us a little bit more about what emotional wealth is

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and how leaders can create that.

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-Yes, surely.

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Okay.

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Yes, it is a… it’s a term—

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I’m not sure if I’ve created it,

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(laughing)

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but it’s a term that really, really speaks to me and resonates

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with the people that I work with.

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So yeah, of course, really happy to expand on this.

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So emotional wealth means feeling deeply connected.

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As you may be able to tell, I’m all about connection.

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Everything’s about connection, really.

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It’s feeling deeply connected, deeply purposeful, and at peace within yourself,

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to not just happy, it’s depth.

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It’s the inner resources that kind of allow you,

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let’s say, to navigate life’s challenges with resilience,

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maintaining fulfilling relationships and leading with authenticity.

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So you’ve got that clever dance

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between excelling at work and excelling at home.

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In that way, you actually really can have it all.

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Now, the sad truth is, for so many leaders,

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you can have financial wealth, you can have professional success,

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but you can still feel emotionally bankrupt,

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emotionally disconnected, unfulfilled, wondering,

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“I’ve achieved so much.

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Is this all there is?”

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Now this is why I really feel emotional wealth matters so much,

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why I’m so passionate about this.

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And it’s because many leaders discover

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that the same drive that built their career

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is quietly eroding their most important relationships.

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And they feel powerless to stop it.

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Partnerships are suffering.

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Their kids are feeling distant from them,

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perhaps living in “planet bedroom,” as we say,

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just trying to get away from them.

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And success starts to feel lonely.

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Now, crucially, as this pattern continues

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and leaders kind of pretend it isn’t there conveniently

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because it can just feel too difficult to actually

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dive into it and try and try and clear it.

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This can then lead to burnout.

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And burnout, it isn’t just about working too hard.

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That’s what we immediately think of, isn’t it, when we talk about burnout?

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It’s about

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tying your entire sense of work to your output,

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which means that you can never truly rest, doesn’t it?

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So I talk to my clients about three pillars of emotional wealth.

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-These are so helpful, particularly that notion of burnout.

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And connecting it is when your worth is based on your output.

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-Absolutely.

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-And not the fundamental value that you have just didn’t, of…

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yourself by your own existence,

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and through the relationships you have with others and your efforts.

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And, you know, yeah.

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-Yeah, you know, burnout is, is that

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it’s that sense that you’re always running, isn’t it?

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You’re always trying to overperform.

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You can never switch off.

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So many leaders confuse

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you know, anxiety with ambition or ambition with anxiety.

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You know, it’s that constant pushing through the whole time.

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And it’s depleting your physiology without you even realizing that it happens.

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And your relationships,

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how do they figure?

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-Mm hmm.

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-So I talk to my clients about three pillars of emotional wealth.

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This really underpins this idea, which I hope will be really valuable for your listeners.

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So the first pillar of emotional wealth

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is what I call the pillar of authentic relationships.

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As I’ve said relationships are key.

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Connection is everything.

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So building deep connection that is built on genuine intimacy.

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Not masks, not playing a role.

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It’s about understanding how the achiever’s mindset,

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you know, that kind of fix it, optimize it, win it.

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It works at work, doesn’t it?

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It works at the office.

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-Yeah.

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-But it destroys emotional connection.

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Because your partner, this is so crucial, your partner doesn’t want to be a project.

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They want your presence, not your performance.

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That’s for the office.

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And understanding is key in how men and women

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as leaders sacrifice relationships differently.

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So, a man and woman, together, if they’re both successful leaders

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they may not realize how they are sacrificing each other.

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So men tend to withdraw into work.

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I wonder if you can relate to that.

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(laughing)

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Whereas women tend to perform perfection.

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They keep on trying harder and harder.

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Now, it’s all about creating some vulnerability.

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When you create vulnerability

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either controlled vulnerability in the work environment

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or open vulnerability in your most intimate relationships,

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you create safety for the people around you to be real with you too.

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It’s like you give them permission to be vulnerable in return.

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The second pillar is what I call inherent self-worth,

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because it’s self-worth that is independent of achievement.

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We’re all inherently valuable.

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And your work is an expression of that.

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It’s not the evidence for that.

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People get this confused.

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It’s about leading on clarity rather than constantly striving to prove your work.

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And then, in that way, freedom,

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the freedom in this within your mindset, within yourself, emotionally,

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gives you that permission to rest without feeling like you’re a failure.

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Because that constant need to strive that leads you down that path to burnout

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is no longer there.

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So the third pillar, they just come together.

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The third pillar is what I call internal permission to receive love and rest.

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Sometimes we can be good at giving love, but can we actually receive it?

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It’s about helping my clients to develop that capacity

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to actually receive care, and not just give it.

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It’s about having vulnerable conversations around fears,

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around those unmet needs that high achievers tend to avoid

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because they’re uncomfortable conversations.

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But you know what?

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This rebuilds trust faster than any grand gesture ever can.

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And it’s about setting boundaries

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so that connection can flourish, respect can flourish, understanding can flourish.

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Setting boundaries that protect your energy

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but also prioritize what truly matters.

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You know, they say, don’t they, when we say yes to someone,

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we’re saying no to ourselves.

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It’s really important to keep that present

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because the more we give away,

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let’s say we give… we expend so much energy at the office,

246
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we bring leftovers home.

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So if we’re saying yes too much and overloading,

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striving too much at work, we bring home very little

249
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left in the tank

250
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for our intimate relationships, for our children, for our spouses.

251
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So all of this creates this

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this sense of discovering and holding a real inner peace within us.

253
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There’s a spiritual saying that is,

254
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“We are all spiritual beings having a human experience.”

255
00:16:30,000 –> 00:16:30,791
And it’s very true.

256
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We get caught up in this human doing all the time,

257
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this striving,

258
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that we forget that we’re human beings.

259
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And it’s about keeping that balance.

260
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-Mm hmm.

261
00:16:43,708 –> 00:16:47,000
-So creating freedom from that exhausting

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inner critic and oh, that constant overthink.

263
00:16:52,416 –> 00:16:56,875
So I help my clients achieve this, so implementing the pillars,

264
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in some simple steps, just a couple of simple steps.

265
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And the first one is covering the foundations.

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So, what I mean by that is healing hidden emotional wounds.

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Now, often

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a leader’s biggest triggers at work, let’s say being questioned,

269
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being criticized, being overlooked,

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are replaying unhealed patterns from decades ago.

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So it’s understanding how your past shapes your leadership.

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Because over controlling leaders often felt powerless as kids.

273
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People pleasing leaders learned love was conditional.

274
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It makes sense, doesn’t it?

275
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So it’s recognizing relationship patterns.

276
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The idea of, you know, I’m successful,

277
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so why isn’t my relationship working?

278
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It should be.

279
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I’m successful.

280
00:18:01,333 –> 00:18:03,500
I’m a successful person.

281
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I’m doing really well in my life.

282
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I’m smashing it.

283
00:18:06,875 –> 00:18:09,541
But my relationship isn’t working.

284
00:18:10,250 –> 00:18:10,958
And why is that?

285
00:18:10,958 –> 00:18:13,458
How do I even broach that?

286
00:18:13,458 –> 00:18:17,708
How do I even look at what might be wrong?

287
00:18:19,041 –> 00:18:22,375
There’s this almost, you know, the ego can come context

288
00:18:22,375 –> 00:18:24,666
in that being successful,

289
00:18:25,000 –> 00:18:25,958
you know, it can’t be me.

290
00:18:25,958 –> 00:18:27,166
I’m not doing anything wrong.

291
00:18:27,166 –> 00:18:27,500
(laughing)

292
00:18:27,500 –> 00:18:29,708
It must be the other person when it’s always

293
00:18:30,166 –> 00:18:32,083
that dance, isn’t it, between the two.

294
00:18:32,083 –> 00:18:37,875
So often it comes down to treating a relationship like a business deal,

295
00:18:38,500 –> 00:18:39,666
instead of a bond.

296
00:18:39,875 –> 00:18:40,375
-Mm hmm.

297
00:18:40,625 –> 00:18:42,291
-Which brings us back round to connection.

298
00:18:42,291 –> 00:18:44,083
And how do we create connections?

299
00:18:44,750 –> 00:18:46,750
It’s with deepening communication skills.

300
00:18:46,750 –> 00:18:47,916
And that’s the step two.

301
00:18:47,916 –> 00:18:50,666
So we’ve got step one is the foundational work.

302
00:18:51,166 –> 00:18:55,208
And then step two is where it comes together with communication.

303
00:18:55,708 –> 00:19:01,083
And as I said at the start, vitally, there are two different approaches.

304
00:19:02,333 –> 00:19:07,000
So you can excel in professional communication.

305
00:19:07,458 –> 00:19:13,875
You can manage perception, control outcomes, win at negotiations.

306
00:19:14,625 –> 00:19:18,500
You can operate with clear boundaries, strategic thinking,

307
00:19:18,500 –> 00:19:21,875
and be really results focused, results driven.

308
00:19:22,375 –> 00:19:25,916
And this is your competitive advantage in the boardroom, isn’t it?

309
00:19:26,500 –> 00:19:27,541
Undoubtedly.

310
00:19:28,583 –> 00:19:29,500
But at home,

311
00:19:30,250 –> 00:19:35,583
it’s critical to recognize that professional communication

312
00:19:36,250 –> 00:19:41,083
trains you to manage perception and control outcomes.

313
00:19:41,583 –> 00:19:45,208
But it kills intimacy and authenticity.

314
00:19:45,916 –> 00:19:52,708
So you have to shift from winning the conversation to deepening connection.

315
00:19:54,083 –> 00:19:59,375
The communication pattern that makes you respected at work

316
00:20:00,708 –> 00:20:07,416
is the same communication pattern that makes your partner feel unheard,

317
00:20:07,750 –> 00:20:08,791
or controlled.

318
00:20:09,625 –> 00:20:10,625
Let me say that again.

319
00:20:11,333 –> 00:20:16,250
The communication pattern that makes you feel respected at work

320
00:20:16,833 –> 00:20:20,875
makes your partner feel unheard or controlled.

321
00:20:21,875 –> 00:20:25,750
So you must learn to be real, to be vulnerable,

322
00:20:26,750 –> 00:20:29,291
so that you can make your children,

323
00:20:29,916 –> 00:20:31,541
your partner,

324
00:20:31,833 –> 00:20:34,333
feel safe to be real too.

325
00:20:34,333 –> 00:20:36,666
Because that’s when you then have connection

326
00:20:36,666 –> 00:20:40,041
and those masks can begin to fall away.

327
00:20:40,708 –> 00:20:44,208
And you can do this without losing your voice

328
00:20:44,541 –> 00:20:46,791
or crucially becoming a doormat,

329
00:20:47,208 –> 00:20:49,791
which is what a lot of people fear, isn’t it?

330
00:20:49,791 –> 00:20:54,000
You know, you’re smashing it outwardly and you’re smashing it at work.

331
00:20:54,666 –> 00:20:57,083
You don’t want that dynamic to shift at home.

332
00:20:57,666 –> 00:21:02,291
So you bring a lot of your identity from work into your home.

333
00:21:02,958 –> 00:21:10,083
It’s fascinating, isn’t it, really, how the human mind works and tries to process all of this.

334
00:21:11,833 –> 00:21:17,041
So let me share well, let me ask you, would you like me to share perhaps some

335
00:21:17,041 –> 00:21:20,458
some daily practices that your listeners could

336
00:21:20,958 –> 00:21:25,250
could begin to think about that that they could maybe bring into their day to day?

337
00:21:25,583 –> 00:21:26,583
Would that be helpful?

338
00:21:26,583 –> 00:21:28,375
-Please, please, that would be great.

339
00:21:28,833 –> 00:21:31,541
-Yeah, let me interject one thing real quick, Lisa,

340
00:21:31,541 –> 00:21:35,875
as you’re reminding me, as you’re describing this difference

341
00:21:35,875 –> 00:21:38,166
between professional and personal life.

342
00:21:38,666 –> 00:21:42,833
I remember back when I was an undergrad at university,

343
00:21:43,208 –> 00:21:46,000
and I was a TA for a professor for a few years,

344
00:21:46,416 –> 00:21:48,375
and it was a human development class.

345
00:21:48,833 –> 00:21:52,541
And I remember one time we were walking from his office over to the lecture hall.

346
00:21:53,083 –> 00:21:57,083
And I always enjoyed those conversations because I learned a lot from him.

347
00:21:57,083 –> 00:21:58,291
I looked up to him.

348
00:21:58,500 –> 00:22:02,541
I remember him saying one time as, you know, day planners were just,

349
00:22:02,541 –> 00:22:06,625
this is several decades ago, and day planners were just becoming so prolific.

350
00:22:07,041 –> 00:22:10,708
And he said, “Do you know what really worries me, Peter, about the future?”

351
00:22:10,916 –> 00:22:11,500
I’m like, “What?”

352
00:22:12,000 –> 00:22:15,416
He’s like, “That we are beginning to manage our families

353
00:22:15,750 –> 00:22:18,125
in the same way we manage business.”

354
00:22:18,708 –> 00:22:23,041
He said, “Because business is measured in productivity and outcome

355
00:22:23,541 –> 00:22:28,916
but families are measured by the quality of relationships and time.”

356
00:22:29,666 –> 00:22:31,375
And it’s that fundamental principle.

357
00:22:31,375 –> 00:22:32,166
It stuck with me.

358
00:22:32,166 –> 00:22:34,750
I mean, it’s been decades since that conversation,

359
00:22:34,750 –> 00:22:38,958
but it’s that core thread that you’re really connecting here,

360
00:22:39,333 –> 00:22:42,625
and understanding we can be authentic leaders,

361
00:22:42,958 –> 00:22:46,416
but that the way we act and the way we interact with others,

362
00:22:46,416 –> 00:22:50,208
it can be different and it needs to be different in the professional realm

363
00:22:50,208 –> 00:22:53,250
versus the personal, family, home life.

364
00:22:54,416 –> 00:22:55,541
-100%.

365
00:22:55,791 –> 00:23:02,000
And that’s on that point, that’s also why it’s really good to have that transition time.

366
00:23:02,291 –> 00:23:02,666
-Yeah.

367
00:23:04,375 –> 00:23:08,250
I suppose you could say since COVID, certainly in the UK,

368
00:23:08,250 –> 00:23:11,916
here are a lot of people who tend to work more from home these days.

369
00:23:11,916 –> 00:23:14,625
They might go into the office a couple of days a week

370
00:23:14,958 –> 00:23:16,833
and then they’ll work from home a few days.

371
00:23:17,541 –> 00:23:22,000
And it’s so vital to have that transition, isn’t it, from work to home.

372
00:23:22,416 –> 00:23:27,958
Whether it’s a walk, a half an hour train commute or an hour drive,

373
00:23:27,958 –> 00:23:31,625
whatever it might be, we need to have that transition

374
00:23:32,041 –> 00:23:36,666
to be able to switch from that office work mindset

375
00:23:37,083 –> 00:23:42,166
into that loving, connecting mindset to be open when we come home.

376
00:23:43,333 –> 00:23:44,458
It’s that idea, isn’t it?

377
00:23:44,458 –> 00:23:46,458
It’s the conflict when we work from home.

378
00:23:46,708 –> 00:23:47,416
How do we do that?

379
00:23:47,666 –> 00:23:50,833
We have to maybe go the long way home,

380
00:23:50,833 –> 00:23:53,791
back into the family dynamic,

381
00:23:53,791 –> 00:23:57,250
go out for a walk or go for a cycle or do something

382
00:23:57,541 –> 00:23:59,291
that creates that transition,

383
00:23:59,291 –> 00:23:59,791
-Mm hmm.

384
00:24:00,000 –> 00:24:03,666
-so that you can actually shift gears and be…

385
00:24:04,708 –> 00:24:09,583
your most authentic self in a personal way as well as in the office.

386
00:24:10,000 –> 00:24:11,083
That’s a really good point, Peter.

387
00:24:11,083 –> 00:24:11,583
I love that.

388
00:24:11,583 –> 00:24:12,083
-Yeah.

389
00:24:12,916 –> 00:24:17,125
-So the daily practices to help your listeners,

390
00:24:17,958 –> 00:24:23,833
I would say the first one has to be looking at regulating your nervous system.

391
00:24:24,583 –> 00:24:29,375
Because you can’t outachieve a nervous system that doesn’t feel safe, can you?

392
00:24:30,750 –> 00:24:33,791
Your nervous system is part of your autonomic functioning

393
00:24:34,125 –> 00:24:35,916
deep within you.

394
00:24:36,083 –> 00:24:36,375
-Mm hmm.

395
00:24:36,375 –> 00:24:38,208
-So you have to really pay attention to that.

396
00:24:38,208 –> 00:24:44,500
You have to really tune into what your nervous system is telling you.

397
00:24:44,750 –> 00:24:46,125
And so often as

398
00:24:46,958 –> 00:24:50,625
busy, successful leaders, we ignore those messages

399
00:24:50,958 –> 00:24:57,000
and we really have to learn to tune into them and help ourselves to find that balance.

400
00:24:57,916 –> 00:24:59,333
To not just keep pushing.

401
00:25:00,875 –> 00:25:01,416
So…

402
00:25:02,125 –> 00:25:07,541
another way that we can do this is through setting those boundaries, seeing boundaries,

403
00:25:08,625 –> 00:25:11,666
as I mentioned, whether we say yes or whether we say no,

404
00:25:12,375 –> 00:25:14,541
boundaries are an act of self-love.

405
00:25:15,458 –> 00:25:16,875
So each time

406
00:25:17,666 –> 00:25:21,875
you say no to someone else, or you shift priority,

407
00:25:22,166 –> 00:25:26,541
it’s actually a way to honor yourself, to honor your needs.

408
00:25:27,541 –> 00:25:31,750
And when you do that, it’s like you’re making a deposit, isn’t it, in your bank of self-love,

409
00:25:32,458 –> 00:25:35,916
which isn’t you know, we don’t often talk about self-love a lot as leaders,

410
00:25:35,916 –> 00:25:39,000
but it’s really important to have this

411
00:25:39,708 –> 00:25:42,166
awareness of the emotional wealth

412
00:25:42,541 –> 00:25:46,166
so that we’re managing that balance all the time.

413
00:25:47,083 –> 00:25:51,416
So that we’re showing self-compassion over self-criticism.

414
00:25:52,291 –> 00:25:54,000
Again, with those wounds,

415
00:25:55,583 –> 00:25:58,208
senior leaders can be so hard on themselves

416
00:25:59,041 –> 00:26:01,500
in that striving for perfection,

417
00:26:02,375 –> 00:26:07,541
in that wanting that next promotion, wanting that next step up,

418
00:26:07,541 –> 00:26:09,458
wanting to close that next deal,

419
00:26:10,583 –> 00:26:13,458
and berating themselves perhaps when it doesn’t come together

420
00:26:13,458 –> 00:26:17,500
and not realizing that at times that’s coming from a trigger,

421
00:26:17,875 –> 00:26:20,458
from an unhealed wound, from the past.

422
00:26:20,791 –> 00:26:23,958
So it’s about showing ourselves some compassion.

423
00:26:24,416 –> 00:26:30,625
Allowing ourselves not to be so perfect, so successful all the time.

424
00:26:31,875 –> 00:26:39,208
What I’m talking about here, I guess, is kind of reframing the mindset, isn’t it?

425
00:26:39,500 –> 00:26:42,458
So that we reframe success from

426
00:26:43,041 –> 00:26:47,916
achieving more and having more, that constant striving all the time, relentless,

427
00:26:48,875 –> 00:26:54,583
to being fully present and connected to the life and the people that we have around us.

428
00:26:55,458 –> 00:27:02,750
So that you begin to regard emotional wealth as seriously as financial wealth.

429
00:27:03,083 –> 00:27:07,625
You know, it isn’t something that’s, you know, kind of woo-woo or, you know.

430
00:27:08,208 –> 00:27:10,000
insignificant, by the by.

431
00:27:10,291 –> 00:27:16,666
It’s so fundamental to being a successful, healthy, balanced leader.

432
00:27:18,541 –> 00:27:26,083
So recognizing that confidence emotionally, let’s say, it isn’t broken.

433
00:27:26,333 –> 00:27:27,083
It’s there.

434
00:27:27,708 –> 00:27:30,916
But often it’s been buried under years of conditioning,

435
00:27:30,916 –> 00:27:35,708
of years of that wearing that mask of outward success.

436
00:27:36,000 –> 00:27:41,125
It’s exhausting to keep up a mask of outward success

437
00:27:41,458 –> 00:27:44,208
whilst there is a deficit in emotional wealth.

438
00:27:44,750 –> 00:27:45,625
Can you see my point?

439
00:27:46,000 –> 00:27:46,375
-Yeah.

440
00:27:46,375 –> 00:27:47,875
-What I’m trying to explain here.

441
00:27:47,875 –> 00:27:50,833
It’s quite intricate to explain and there’s a lot to it.

442
00:27:50,833 –> 00:27:54,500
So I hope I’m making it clear enough for your listeners.

443
00:27:54,750 –> 00:27:56,125
-Yes, yes, thank you.

444
00:27:56,125 –> 00:28:04,125
And in fact, let’s build on this one aspect of boundaries or barriers rather,

445
00:28:04,125 –> 00:28:06,000
barriers that we might put up

446
00:28:06,708 –> 00:28:10,625
as we are needing to become more vulnerable and open.

447
00:28:10,625 –> 00:28:12,791
You mentioned this idea of masks.

448
00:28:13,500 –> 00:28:16,875
And this idea of masks, and it’s interesting.

449
00:28:16,875 –> 00:28:19,083
I’d love to hear your thoughts about…

450
00:28:19,708 –> 00:28:23,083
What are some, and you’ve mentioned a few examples,

451
00:28:23,083 –> 00:28:26,166
but what are some examples of masks?

452
00:28:26,625 –> 00:28:32,083
And sometimes we might actually feel that masks are helpful.

453
00:28:32,833 –> 00:28:35,541
We might get to the point where we think, well, actually,

454
00:28:35,541 –> 00:28:38,583
that’s what’s helped me be successful.

455
00:28:39,333 –> 00:28:40,958
And yet, has it?

456
00:28:41,250 –> 00:28:44,208
And so what are examples of masks?

457
00:28:44,500 –> 00:28:48,500
How are they “good” or not so helpful?

458
00:28:48,833 –> 00:28:51,916
How do you kind of begin to take them off

459
00:28:52,166 –> 00:28:55,583
and have enough confidence to then dive in

460
00:28:55,583 –> 00:29:00,000
and take care of your life as a leader without them as much.

461
00:29:01,583 –> 00:29:02,458
-Great question.

462
00:29:03,291 –> 00:29:08,041
Okay, so first thing to say is that these masks,

463
00:29:09,166 –> 00:29:12,458
and there are different types of masks that leaders wear,

464
00:29:12,708 –> 00:29:14,041
I’ll come on to in a sec,

465
00:29:14,208 –> 00:29:16,791
but the first thing to say is these masks,

466
00:29:17,250 –> 00:29:20,000
when they got created, whenever that was,

467
00:29:20,541 –> 00:29:26,000
it was like an unconscious decision to buckle up, to self-protect.

468
00:29:26,708 –> 00:29:29,583
There was an idea, a perception,

469
00:29:30,125 –> 00:29:35,083
that some kind of mask was necessary in order to survive.

470
00:29:36,916 –> 00:29:40,875
So it’s often the case that when the mask came to be,

471
00:29:41,416 –> 00:29:43,458
it was really useful, it was a good thing.

472
00:29:44,625 –> 00:29:47,916
But over time, it can actually get in the way.

473
00:29:48,583 –> 00:29:53,666
And it can certainly hamper a lot of leaders’ progress, promotion,

474
00:29:54,333 –> 00:29:55,958
connection with their team,

475
00:29:56,375 –> 00:30:01,166
and they don’t even realize that it’s the mask that’s actually getting in the way.

476
00:30:02,000 –> 00:30:03,500
So let me dive into

477
00:30:04,208 –> 00:30:06,375
some examples of these masks.

478
00:30:06,625 –> 00:30:09,041
See if your listeners can relate to them.

479
00:30:09,041 –> 00:30:12,541
I wonder which one they will pick for themselves.

480
00:30:13,375 –> 00:30:20,875
So the first mask that’s really common is the mask that says, “I’ve got this.”

481
00:30:21,375 –> 00:30:22,416
“I’ve got this.”

482
00:30:22,916 –> 00:30:23,666
“I’m on it.”

483
00:30:24,041 –> 00:30:24,791
“It’s all good.”

484
00:30:25,541 –> 00:30:26,750
It’s the mask

485
00:30:27,250 –> 00:30:30,791
that’s always competent, that’s never uncertain,

486
00:30:31,458 –> 00:30:34,208
but it’s the mask that can’t ask for help.

487
00:30:35,666 –> 00:30:40,458
In reality, the person wearing this mask is exhausted.

488
00:30:41,125 –> 00:30:44,541
They are privately doubting every decision,

489
00:30:45,375 –> 00:30:48,250
and they’re terrified of being found out.

490
00:30:49,625 –> 00:30:50,416
And then you know what?

491
00:30:50,416 –> 00:30:56,291
They bring this home as trying to fix the partner’s problem

492
00:30:56,958 –> 00:30:58,625
instead of just listening.

493
00:30:59,333 –> 00:31:01,666
So the next mask we have is

494
00:31:02,500 –> 00:31:05,875
the idea of, and this is particularly relevant to women,

495
00:31:06,916 –> 00:31:08,666
is the strong woman,

496
00:31:10,208 –> 00:31:13,791
which is really masculine energy coming forward.

497
00:31:14,000 –> 00:31:20,166
So a woman stepping out of her feminine energy and into her masculine energy.

498
00:31:20,583 –> 00:31:22,375
So she’s never emotional.

499
00:31:23,125 –> 00:31:24,625
She’s always rational.

500
00:31:26,625 –> 00:31:30,083
And she’s actually tougher than a lot of men.

501
00:31:30,458 –> 00:31:31,708
Scary thought, isn’t it?

502
00:31:31,708 –> 00:31:33,000
(laughing)

503
00:31:33,000 –> 00:31:34,375
Now, the reality is

504
00:31:35,208 –> 00:31:38,291
she is suppressing her feelings.

505
00:31:39,041 –> 00:31:42,625
She’s stepped aside from her feminine energy.

506
00:31:43,250 –> 00:31:49,208
She suppresses her feelings until they begin to leak out as anxiety,

507
00:31:49,208 –> 00:31:52,541
as relationship strain, or health issues.

508
00:31:52,791 –> 00:31:53,958
I help a lot of

509
00:31:54,291 –> 00:31:57,416
a lot of senior leaders, particularly lawyers actually,

510
00:31:58,208 –> 00:32:01,083
with chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia.

511
00:32:02,000 –> 00:32:06,791
And it’s this leaking out of this needing to be so strong.

512
00:32:07,708 –> 00:32:11,750
This leads to performing perfection at home.

513
00:32:12,041 –> 00:32:15,208
The idea that she is completely smashing it.

514
00:32:15,208 –> 00:32:17,125
I have clients who say to me outwardly

515
00:32:17,666 –> 00:32:19,083
“I’m so smashing it.

516
00:32:19,083 –> 00:32:23,791
I keep the train on the tracks every day, but I’m burnt out.

517
00:32:24,208 –> 00:32:25,416
I’m exhausted.

518
00:32:25,833 –> 00:32:28,500
I don’t know how I can continue like this.”

519
00:32:29,333 –> 00:32:34,041
So there’s a real, a real strong mask though, isn’t there,

520
00:32:34,916 –> 00:32:35,625
that is…

521
00:32:37,125 –> 00:32:42,250
that’s really, really working against someone’s health in that particular instance.

522
00:32:43,875 –> 00:32:46,833
So then we have the nice leader,

523
00:32:47,041 –> 00:32:52,125
the people pleaser mask, the one that avoids conflict.

524
00:32:52,750 –> 00:32:55,833
And this person prioritizes being liked.

525
00:32:56,958 –> 00:32:59,791
This person is a chronic people pleaser.

526
00:33:00,375 –> 00:33:01,916
Nothing’s too much trouble.

527
00:33:03,083 –> 00:33:07,125
This person has often learned that love was conditional

528
00:33:08,125 –> 00:33:10,666
on being good as a child.

529
00:33:12,666 –> 00:33:19,083
Now, the reality is that this person, despite their outward smiling,

530
00:33:19,791 –> 00:33:23,458
despite their amicability,

531
00:33:24,625 –> 00:33:27,708
they are silently very resentful.

532
00:33:28,708 –> 00:33:31,125
And they are unable to hold boundaries.

533
00:33:31,625 –> 00:33:37,208
They are dismissed by the people they really seek approval from.

534
00:33:38,041 –> 00:33:40,000
So in some ways they feel invisible.

535
00:33:41,416 –> 00:33:44,833
Now this person struggles with vulnerable conversation.

536
00:33:45,708 –> 00:33:48,666
And it’s these conversations, isn’t it, that matter most.

537
00:33:49,458 –> 00:33:52,916
This person isn’t asking for what they need.

538
00:33:53,375 –> 00:33:55,250
They’re not setting boundaries.

539
00:33:55,500 –> 00:34:01,166
They’re not navigating, confronting relationship tension.

540
00:34:02,541 –> 00:34:06,666
It’s that constant swerving, trying to be okay.

541
00:34:07,750 –> 00:34:11,541
But all the time this high functioning anxiety is building, isn’t it?

542
00:34:13,375 –> 00:34:16,458
So then we’ve got, there’s just a couple more I can think of.

543
00:34:17,291 –> 00:34:21,583
Then we’ve got the perfectionist, the performance mask.

544
00:34:22,416 –> 00:34:25,791
And this is where every detail must be flawless.

545
00:34:26,625 –> 00:34:31,291
So this person is constantly proving their worth through achievement.

546
00:34:32,500 –> 00:34:34,583
It’s the lie, isn’t it, that says,

547
00:34:34,583 –> 00:34:38,791
“I’ll feel good about myself when I’ve accomplished enough.”

548
00:34:39,208 –> 00:34:40,958
So they keep on striving.

549
00:34:41,541 –> 00:34:44,583
And for these people, burnout is often inevitable.

550
00:34:45,833 –> 00:34:51,083
Because that day, when they have accomplished everything that ever comes,

551
00:34:51,708 –> 00:34:54,750
it’s always a day away, isn’t it, as they say in the musical Annie?

552
00:34:54,750 –> 00:34:55,666
(laughing)

553
00:34:56,708 –> 00:35:02,625
And the reality is, these people are paralyzed by the fear of failure.

554
00:35:03,666 –> 00:35:07,291
And they are burning out because they again, as we’ve said,

555
00:35:07,291 –> 00:35:10,750
are tying worth to their output.

556
00:35:12,416 –> 00:35:17,875
Now at home, this person treats their partner like another achievement.

557
00:35:18,625 –> 00:35:24,208
So they’re always looking to optimize rather than create,

558
00:35:24,916 –> 00:35:26,750
you know, create this human connection.

559
00:35:27,541 –> 00:35:30,750
And the last one that I can think of that comes to mind just now is,

560
00:35:31,541 –> 00:35:33,583
I don’t need anyone mask.

561
00:35:34,916 –> 00:35:36,583
Yeah, it’s a bit like the first one.

562
00:35:36,958 –> 00:35:37,875
You know, “I’ve got it.”

563
00:35:38,208 –> 00:35:39,000
“I’m good.”

564
00:35:39,958 –> 00:35:42,250
This person is hyper-independent.

565
00:35:43,333 –> 00:35:44,916
Maybe you know someone like that.

566
00:35:45,875 –> 00:35:50,041
This person is so independent, you know, won’t show any vulnerability,

567
00:35:50,458 –> 00:35:52,416
but is very lonely at the top.

568
00:35:53,375 –> 00:35:54,833
It’s that reality…

569
00:35:57,291 –> 00:35:58,125
of being…

570
00:35:59,500 –> 00:36:04,333
desperate for genuine connection, but terrified to drop any defenses.

571
00:36:04,333 –> 00:36:07,583
So there’s this real push me, pull me battle,

572
00:36:08,041 –> 00:36:10,750
conflict going on inside this person.

573
00:36:11,500 –> 00:36:18,666
Now, this person excels at negotiating billion-dollar deals, let’s say, massive deals.

574
00:36:19,750 –> 00:36:23,875
But they struggle to ask their partner for emotional support.

575
00:36:25,041 –> 00:36:27,583
How isolating is that?

576
00:36:29,208 –> 00:36:33,875
So wearing these masks, of course, there’s going to be cost.

577
00:36:33,875 –> 00:36:36,875
There’s going to be a personal cost, isn’t there, to this.

578
00:36:37,333 –> 00:36:42,500
Not only is it exhausting, it’s disconnecting, it creates anxiety,

579
00:36:43,500 –> 00:36:46,291
and it destroys relationships, it destroys that

580
00:36:46,750 –> 00:36:48,250
relationship connection.

581
00:36:48,583 –> 00:36:52,541
Because again, you’re treating relationship like business deals

582
00:36:52,541 –> 00:36:55,000
instead of bonding, as I mentioned.

583
00:36:56,875 –> 00:36:57,875
Professionally…

584
00:37:00,750 –> 00:37:03,000
well, decision making suffers

585
00:37:03,750 –> 00:37:06,625
because you’re leading from fear, not from character,

586
00:37:07,333 –> 00:37:08,083
it confuses…

587
00:37:09,000 –> 00:37:11,166
creates confusion in your team.

588
00:37:12,916 –> 00:37:15,125
Trust erodes within your team

589
00:37:15,750 –> 00:37:18,208
because people sense that you’re not being honest.

590
00:37:19,333 –> 00:37:20,833
You’re not being authentic.

591
00:37:21,250 –> 00:37:24,166
There’s some degree that just doesn’t sit right.

592
00:37:25,875 –> 00:37:31,291
And acceleration… burnout accelerates, doesn’t it?

593
00:37:32,208 –> 00:37:35,916
So burnout accelerates because we’re not resting enough.

594
00:37:37,083 –> 00:37:40,958
Because we feel that when we rest, we feel like a failure.

595
00:37:42,333 –> 00:37:44,333
Worth is tied to output.

596
00:37:45,916 –> 00:37:49,416
And you then become the problem.

597
00:37:50,625 –> 00:37:54,708
You’re a successful leader in your own right.

598
00:37:54,708 –> 00:37:58,708
You’re well respected, but you’ve got a problem

599
00:37:59,666 –> 00:38:05,041
because your professional communication style makes you respected at work,

600
00:38:05,541 –> 00:38:08,666
but makes your partner feel unheard or controlled.

601
00:38:09,250 –> 00:38:12,750
And nobody wants that, not in an intimate relationship.

602
00:38:13,208 –> 00:38:16,083
Let’s look at where these masks come from.

603
00:38:16,291 –> 00:38:20,375
So they can come from early conditioning.

604
00:38:21,416 –> 00:38:23,875
So those hidden wounds that I’ve mentioned.

605
00:38:25,791 –> 00:38:29,791
The childhood wound behind your leadership style

606
00:38:30,958 –> 00:38:33,333
Is what really shows.

607
00:38:34,083 –> 00:38:38,708
So, over-controlling leaders who felt powerless as kids,

608
00:38:38,708 –> 00:38:41,750
people pleasers who learned that love was unconditional,

609
00:38:41,750 –> 00:38:43,250
are two clear examples.

610
00:38:44,125 –> 00:38:47,083
The idea of don’t be too much.

611
00:38:47,500 –> 00:38:49,041
Good girls don’t brag.

612
00:38:49,791 –> 00:38:51,791
Showing emotion is weakness.

613
00:38:53,291 –> 00:38:58,750
Or family systems where certain feelings weren’t safe to express.

614
00:39:00,250 –> 00:39:04,333
These all carry forward and you can see how they create masks for safety

615
00:39:04,666 –> 00:39:08,875
in that way that I explained how they first get created for self-protection.

616
00:39:09,916 –> 00:39:12,666
And then they’ve been worn for so long

617
00:39:12,666 –> 00:39:14,750
that they actually become part of your identity.

618
00:39:14,750 –> 00:39:17,125
You actually don’t realize that you’re wearing a mask.

619
00:39:17,458 –> 00:39:20,000
So leaders who appear most confident

620
00:39:20,958 –> 00:39:28,333
the most confident leaders are often running from deepest childhood wounds.

621
00:39:28,708 –> 00:39:29,625
It’s incredible.

622
00:39:30,458 –> 00:39:34,500
It’s amazing how senior leaders can push through so much.

623
00:39:35,458 –> 00:39:37,791
But it’s tiring for their physiology.

624
00:39:38,916 –> 00:39:42,916
This constant grouping, performing, affecting

625
00:39:43,541 –> 00:39:46,791
that silences that voice, doesn’t it, that once said

626
00:39:47,541 –> 00:39:48,541
they weren’t enough.

627
00:39:48,958 –> 00:39:50,041
They weren’t good enough.

628
00:39:50,833 –> 00:39:52,875
And they’re fighting against that,

629
00:39:53,750 –> 00:39:59,125
buried deep down all the time, often without realizing they’re doing that.

630
00:40:00,166 –> 00:40:04,791
Now masks can also come from gender socialization,

631
00:40:05,416 –> 00:40:07,083
so where there’s a double standard.

632
00:40:08,708 –> 00:40:09,833
See how this sits with you.

633
00:40:10,125 –> 00:40:12,500
Obviously, we’ve got both genders here from me to you guys.

634
00:40:12,500 –> 00:40:13,333
(laughing)

635
00:40:13,333 –> 00:40:16,833
So assertive men are seen as leaders,

636
00:40:17,958 –> 00:40:21,541
but assertive women can be seen as difficult.

637
00:40:22,708 –> 00:40:25,458
There are cultural narratives about,

638
00:40:25,458 –> 00:40:28,875
about having it all, without showing the strain.

639
00:40:29,208 –> 00:40:32,541
In Britain we talk about this as the British stiff upper lip.

640
00:40:33,458 –> 00:40:34,416
Worst thing ever.

641
00:40:34,416 –> 00:40:36,125
(laughing)

642
00:40:36,125 –> 00:40:38,666
Because we’re not being real or authentic.

643
00:40:39,291 –> 00:40:42,291
You know, we have to be true to ourselves.

644
00:40:42,708 –> 00:40:44,041
Take off the masks.

645
00:40:44,041 –> 00:40:44,791
Find that,

646
00:40:45,333 –> 00:40:51,166
that safety, that ability to take off the mask and be real, to connect.

647
00:40:51,875 –> 00:40:52,625
-And that, and that…

648
00:40:52,625 –> 00:40:53,375
-Now, how…

649
00:40:53,750 –> 00:40:56,166
-I was going to say, Lisa, and what you’re describing,

650
00:40:56,166 –> 00:41:00,458
that ability to kind of take off that mask, it’s so important.

651
00:41:00,750 –> 00:41:02,500
You know, it’s not easy for leaders to do.

652
00:41:02,500 –> 00:41:04,666
And I think also helping to normalize,

653
00:41:05,125 –> 00:41:06,083
as humans,

654
00:41:06,375 –> 00:41:10,916
like this notion of masks, this notion of striving for,

655
00:41:10,916 –> 00:41:13,166
you know, to achieve better, to be perfect.

656
00:41:13,166 –> 00:41:17,083
I mean, we can go, I mean you can go back to Greek philosophy of Plato

657
00:41:17,083 –> 00:41:20,666
and, you know, holding up the forms and these perfect forms.

658
00:41:20,666 –> 00:41:24,500
And, you know, more recently, in the early 20th century,

659
00:41:24,500 –> 00:41:27,625
of Carl Jung with the archetypes and masks that…

660
00:41:27,875 –> 00:41:31,916
you know, so this isn’t something that’s just new for us in our day.

661
00:41:32,333 –> 00:41:36,541
It’s a challenge humans have had probably since the existence of time.

662
00:41:37,166 –> 00:41:38,791
But you’re helping to remind us

663
00:41:39,291 –> 00:41:43,583
to one, be aware that we can have these masks

664
00:41:43,958 –> 00:41:48,208
and that we have the power to change those.

665
00:41:48,541 –> 00:41:51,541
To understand when we take them off, when we put them on.

666
00:41:52,250 –> 00:41:55,958
So, as we’re kind of wrapping this great conversation up, Lisa,

667
00:41:55,958 –> 00:41:58,208
what would you say is the one thing

668
00:41:58,708 –> 00:42:02,916
that you hope our listeners really take away from this conversation

669
00:42:02,916 –> 00:42:08,000
so they can be a more emotionally and mentally strong leader?

670
00:42:08,750 –> 00:42:09,291
-Okay.

671
00:42:09,291 –> 00:42:11,041
So the one thing that I would say,

672
00:42:11,666 –> 00:42:14,333
I could talk about this for ages, as I’m sure you can tell,

673
00:42:14,333 –> 00:42:15,791
there’s a lot to say.

674
00:42:17,083 –> 00:42:22,125
But I would say the one… the biggest takeaway right now that I can think of is this:

675
00:42:23,291 –> 00:42:26,375
The same drive that built your career

676
00:42:27,166 –> 00:42:30,583
is quietly eroding your most important relationships.

677
00:42:31,208 –> 00:42:36,291
And emotional wealth means learning to lead powerfully at work

678
00:42:36,583 –> 00:42:38,541
whilst connecting deeply at home,

679
00:42:39,291 –> 00:42:44,291
and recognizing that these require two completely different skills.

680
00:42:44,708 –> 00:42:46,250
-Lisa, well said.

681
00:42:46,541 –> 00:42:52,041
You have shared some tremendously deep and introspective ideas

682
00:42:52,041 –> 00:42:57,083
for so many of us, and I’m sure all of our listeners can then continue to ponder,

683
00:42:57,708 –> 00:43:00,041
and begin to act on,

684
00:43:00,041 –> 00:43:03,541
as they challenge themselves to show up differently,

685
00:43:04,083 –> 00:43:08,458
to enact different scripts, to be able to question some of their masks,

686
00:43:08,791 –> 00:43:14,583
and to build stronger, more emotional, more emotionally strong bonds with others

687
00:43:14,875 –> 00:43:17,000
as we seek to be our best selves,

688
00:43:17,250 –> 00:43:19,083
both professionally and personally.

689
00:43:19,083 –> 00:43:23,333
Thank you, Lisa, very much for being a guest on the Leadership Growth Podcast.

690
00:43:23,333 –> 00:43:24,291
It’s been a pleasure.

691
00:43:25,750 –> 00:43:27,958
-It’s been my absolute pleasure too.

692
00:43:28,166 –> 00:43:30,000
You know, an hour has flown by, hasn’t it?

693
00:43:30,000 –> 00:43:31,791
It’s been such a great conversation.

694
00:43:31,791 –> 00:43:32,541
(laughing)

695
00:43:32,541 –> 00:43:32,958
-Yes.

696
00:43:33,375 –> 00:43:35,250
Yes, Lisa, thank you again.

697
00:43:35,250 –> 00:43:38,250
And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us

698
00:43:38,250 –> 00:43:42,291
as we’ve talked about tips and tools to help each of us

699
00:43:42,291 –> 00:43:45,083
become stronger, better leaders in the future.

700
00:43:45,416 –> 00:43:48,208
We look forward to having you join us in future episodes.

701
00:43:48,500 –> 00:43:49,541
Take care, everyone.

702
00:43:49,791 –> 00:43:50,583
All the best.

703
00:43:51,250 –> 00:43:54,500
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague.

704
00:43:54,500 –> 00:43:58,458
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705
00:43:59,000 –> 00:44:01,916
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706
00:44:02,625 –> 00:44:05,791
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707
00:44:05,791 –> 00:44:08,250
can help you grow your ability to lead effectively,

708
00:44:08,708 –> 00:44:11,166
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